Train better signal behavior

[Tami]

As it is now, a light switchs to red if anywhere in the following part is train, even its not possible to reach each other. Also it is not possible to link signals. That means if a signal is red, another linked singals should red too prevent blocking a mainroute.

It would be nice to have differenz signals like blocksignals and mainsignals. In this game we have allready tools to link things together, so it could be possible to link signals too.

Mainsignals could work in this way: they are green if there is no train anywhere it so upcomming path. They are red, if anywhere is a train. They switch to yellow, if there is an unsed path to the next blocksignal, that can be used. An >automatic< train sends information to the signal and the signal says "its free" or "its not free". For player used controlled train the signal is red.

[Neotix]

You have a red signal because you set them wrong.
The train arrives at the bottom of the yellow segment so train on top have red signal and have to wait.



You have to divide tracks, especially the crossroads into sections.
I set the crossroads in this way.

[ssilk]

Cool! Neotix, those pics are very useful. Can I add them into the wiki?

And to the devs: I suggest to add a similar highlightning of the block you stand nearest, because this will reduce many of those questions.

[Neotix]

Cool! Neotix, those pics are very useful. Can I add them into the wiki?

Sure

[rk84]

as devs are ttd fans, pre-signals will be probably added in some point. If they add same kind system as in ottd, you should be able to give sertain segment higher priority to pass over block.
http://wiki.openttd.org/Priority_Merge

I think ability to control signal state with circuit network could be interesting and possibly enable:
-Directing trains to alternative routes or into depots.
-Keeping trains in depots if there is no demand/supply of items.

[Neotix]

Thats why, when it's impossible to set signal priority, I'm using circle crossroads. Now trains can turn back in every circle, and they have many possible trails to reach station.

[Tami]

I know that the upcoming segment is blocked, but the exact path is free. In similar way the signals in ottd work too. If the PATH is free, let the train pass the signal, is the PATH is blocked or reserved, dont let the train pass. In my case the Segment is used, but the Path is free. For this Reason the Signal should be red first. If a train arrives the signal, the train speaks to the signal, which path the train wants to take. If the choosen path is free, the signal yes yellow and train can pass the signal.

[ssilk]

See http://wiki.openttd.org/Signals#Block_signals

Everything on this page and others about block-signals is valid for Factorio, too!

The rest is what is wanted. I think I can speak for the devs, that this may take a while. Till then use circles (around a lake) or simple layouts. I think the rest of the OTTD docs (which is BIG) can explain some cool layouts, which you can do.

[FrozenOne]

I'd say one day implementing path signals will be needed. But now, it's factorio, not transport tycoon, so i'd appreciate more industries and factory stuff that actually add playability to the game, not wasting time on these little things.

[SilverWarior]

I know that the upcoming segment is blocked, but the exact path is free. In similar way the signals in ottd work too. If the PATH is free, let the train pass the signal, is the PATH is blocked or reserved, dont let the train pass. In my case the Segment is used, but the Path is free. For this Reason the Signal should be red first. If a train arrives the signal, the train speaks to the signal, which path the train wants to take. If the choosen path is free, the signal yes yellow and train can pass the signal.

What you want would require contsnt movment monitoring of every train that is on such segment to predict if the path will be free when trains come to the crossing. And since trains can stop/start or change speed at almost any time making such predictions is almost imposible.
Even in real life train signals work much like the ones in OTTD or Factorio for that matter.
What I learned from OTTD is that you should make rails segments that contain crossings as smal as posible and make sure that they contain only one croossing rather than more othervise train moving through one crossing will cause blockage for train trying to move through other crossing even if they actually wouldn't block each other.
So in your case add another set of signals on rail which goes diagonaly upwards from your bottom train. The only problem would be adding neded signals on top part of this rail section so that they would be placed in a way that train wating on them won't be causing total blockage of your double track line.

[kovarex]

The only problem would be adding neded signals on top part of this rail section so that they would be placed in a way that train wating on them won't be causing total blockage of your double track line.

That is what pre signals are needed for.

[BurnHard]

But now, it's factorio, not transport tycoon, so i'd appreciate more industries and factory stuff that actually add playability to the game, not wasting time on these little things.

I would go that far to say that trains should have no place in factorio at all, not the way they work now. I really dont want so see a second transport tycoon, I want to build a (ONE) large factory.

I am really hoping for a much smaller, one tile-wide monorail (whatever) with small waggons powered by electricity to transport a lot of stuff over large distances without intersections (only underground solutions like the transport belts). No need for complicated train signals and so on.

[kovarex]

But now, it's factorio, not transport tycoon, so i'd appreciate more industries and factory stuff that actually add playability to the game, not wasting time on these little things.

I would go that far to say that trains should have no place in factorio at all, not the way they work now. I really dont want so see a second transport tycoon, I want to build a (ONE) large factory.

I am really hoping for a much smaller, one tile-wide monorail (whatever) with small waggons powered by electricity to transport a lot of stuff over large distances without intersections (only underground solutions like the transport belts). No need for complicated train signals and so on.

It would be too easy, wouldn't it?
You still have the option to build faster (parallel) belts or logistics robots.
The monorail would be very hard to balance, as the train would still need to be usable for big distances, and transport belts should have still meaning on shorter distances.

[BurnHard]

The problem I encountered in the endgame: 95% of my time ingame then consisted of only building railtracks and mining expansion and deconstructing old mining sites which are depleted after 1-2 hours ingame. I think one resource field should last at least 12 hours of gameplay (slower drills?, way more resources?, smaller fields for less space for drills).

Those big fat railway tracks and trains, those mining drill sites with all the inserters and buffer chests, shouldnt be something you have to change every 2 hours, what do you think, is there some rebalancing planned?

PS. With the monorail, i thought of something like "1-tile wide chests on wheels" they still need to be loaded and unloaded using inserters. These could be used in the factories for eg transporting large masses of intermediate products.

[Neotix]

Adding electric transpot carts would be great. It would be something between belts and trains but with trans mechanics. Belts are good to organize factory sections like furnaces, boilers, storages etc. Trains are designed for long distance transportation. Electric cart would be perfect to transport materials between sectrions like IronOre from big storage to furnace section, IronPlate from furnace section to assemby section etc.

[ssilk]

@BurnHard: I see the trains in the end-game as a connection between your factories, like in OTTD between the cities/production-sites.

@Neotix: And I also thought some times about "electric carts" like they are already used in some real factories...

... Do you know what? Like the cars in Miniatur-wonderland!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwUem61spGo
http://www.miniatur-wunderland.de/anlag ... ungsbrand/
http://www.miniatur-wunderland.com/exhi ... carsystem/

Of course electric carts, not cars like in the videos.

But currently I think it takes too long to come out of the box and expand. But that's too off-topic.

[Tami]

Its a one time check, not a constant check. A train reachs the red signal and maybe stops first. The Red signal switch to orange/green, if the used path is not reserved/used by another trains that maybe have allready a yellow signal.

Also we need another signal, that is not a signal, more a blocker.

Code: Select all

==Train2==(presignal: yellow)====(signal1: Red)===(railswitch)====(segment Blocker)=========Train1======== ...  Path1
                                                      ================(segment Blocker)===========================  Path2

With the segment Blocker it should be easier to check, if a path is free or not.
If anywhere in the upcomming segment, included behind segment blocker is blocked, the signal is red.
If Train2 wants to take Path2, the Signal is green.

The presignal is red, if the upcomming signal1 is red. A train will NOT stop at the presignal.
By reaching the presignal, there will be a check if the upcomming choosen path behind signal1 is free, if it is free, its green, if not, its red.
At this point, the train dont need to stop an can drive by with full speed.
If the signal1 is red, the train stops as usually. The check for upcomming path could be once per x seconds.
If there are more trains who wants to use the same path, the train withthe longest waittime will get green at first.

[Tami]

The problem I encountered in the endgame: 95% of my time ingame then consisted of only building railtracks and mining expansion and deconstructing old mining sites which are depleted after 1-2 hours ingame. I think one resource field should last at least 12 hours of gameplay (slower drills?, way more resources?, smaller fields for less space for drills).

You can use the option for making new games with more ressources, they will last really long time.
To expand is, how to play this game, for this reason you have unlimit sized maps.

[kovarex]

The problem I encountered in the endgame: 95% of my time ingame then consisted of only building railtracks and mining expansion and deconstructing old mining sites which are depleted after 1-2 hours ingame. I think one resource field should last at least 12 hours of gameplay (slower drills?, way more resources?, smaller fields for less space for drills).

You can use the option for making new games with more ressources, they will last really long time.
To expand is, how to play this game, for this reason you have unlimit sized maps.

True, and also, this will (hopefully) change with the blueprints and construction robots, as the (de)construction of new mining sites should be just ordering the appropriate blueprint, or ordering to deconstruction.

[ssilk]

^ ^