Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

[kbk]

I'd like to thank V for his valiant efforts into these changes and for what he's been through to polish them. At the same time I still think that the core BOP recipe change is overly simplistic and the whole oil-related tech tree now feels lacking some complexity in the midgame. I hope that all these two weeks of discussions make more sense in the future and have not gone in vain. A pity that neither HO nor LO couldn't make it to the end of them and how the community became so divided and aggravated.
Thank you all

[Garie]

I hate the fluid mechanics:

New fluid mechanics are planned but did not make it in the game yet.

I know, but unti then all other changes are crappy.

[Oktokolo]

I hate the fluid mechanics:

New fluid mechanics are planned but did not make it in the game yet.

I know, but unti then all other changes are crappy.

They do it on purpose:
First the get all the long-term players to the edge of insanity with one noob gameplay smoothener after another.
Then when they start releasing the actual improvements, they can bath in the waves of fame for months.

[conn11]

As the circuit networks is almost by definition logical, but not often touched by beginners. I agree oil balancing is not only logical, but fun. Therfore practically nobody is suggesting to change AOP significantly. But oldBOP with only SF to balance (considering mass storing, brute force solution), without use of circuit conditions is quite challenging. I’m not sure some UI changes would have fixed that (I‘m not saying they with some Oil tutorials should not be implemented). The best compromise seems to be a smoother introduction into oil, with the potential to make HO and LO more relevant in the later game, wich is adding to the puzzle in a positive way.

I can only surmise you did not read the link I posted as to why none of the old basic oil processing is overly challenging.

I‘ve red it. Setting a basic refinery is easy enough, but keeping it running not so much. Considering that just spamming fluid tanks it far from a well implemented solution and only badly automatable (considering most new players won’t use circuit conditions). SF as balancing might not be enough, since your pre blue base might not consume that much power. As for the jump on science complexity. Yeah sure, but once achieving it, the player has way more options to develop their factory, sounds much more interesting, than to just have some different science ingredients.
To the question if this is the real game breaking experience: theoretically yes, but their is also good evidence (steam forums) to support oil as main cause. After all maybe it isn’t just a „scapegoat“ Oil yields intermediate products, many of wich are used later, a complex and interesting feature. To make this get started a little bit easier is arguably more preferable than to simplifying blue science or get rid of oil related intermediate products, as more extreme proposal.
Furthermore the opinion on this forum is of course biased, by having virtually none of the players qutting the game present. To assume all of them are unfit to play Factorio is speculation.

[bobingabout]

In the old way though, depending just how much lube you were after, you could run a mix of basic and advanced processing.

I always just ran advanced completely and had a circuit-controlled cracking setup attached to it myself.

Cracking only works if you're producing too much of the heavier products, sometimes when running advanced only, it was the heavier products you'd actually run out of and be left with too much PG, which is why there'd be some basic processing mixed in to create more of those heavier products.

This is fairly evident when you start pumping out express belts for the first time, and end up needing a lot of lube.

[Antaios]

I‘ve red it. Setting a basic refinery is easy enough, but keeping it running not so much. Considering that just spamming fluid tanks it far from a well implemented solution and only badly automatable (considering most new players won’t use circuit conditions). SF as balancing might not be enough, since your pre blue base might not consume that much power. As for the jump on science complexity. Yeah sure, but once achieving it, the player has way more options to develop their factory, sounds much more interesting, than to just have some different science ingredients.
To the question if this is the real game breaking experience: theoretically yes, but their is also good evidence (steam forums) to support oil as main cause. After all maybe it isn’t just a „scapegoat“ Oil yields intermediate products, many of wich are used later, a complex and interesting feature. To make this get started a little bit easier is arguably more preferable than to simplifying blue science or get rid of oil related intermediate products, as more extreme proposal.
Furthermore the opinion on this forum is of course biased, by having virtually none of the players qutting the game present. To assume all of them are unfit to play Factorio is speculation.

There are interesting things to do with oil in the green/red period, they're just not mandatory nor starting to get highlighted yet. It also takes making a lot more things to fill up a tank with byproducts than people think, not even accounting for solid fuel, there's far less "spamming" of tanks than people shout about.

I wouldn't advocate simplifying blue or removing intermediate products, that's the point of my post, there is actually no issue, it's just a slow part of the game.

If you wanted to prevent players from having "no" solution available untli blue science for basic oil processing, the solution is to make cracking a green tier technology, likely split from advanced oil processing. This way the player can tackle cracking ratios at their own pace, dependant upon how much of a problem they feel it is.

If you wanted to slow down the time it takes to require a tank for excess oil products, the solution is to tweak the basic oil processing output, and possibly the solid fuel requirement of chemical science packs. This way the player starts getting understanding of the items/fluids/infrastructure well before needing to mass produce the two secondary fluids, it also keeps available technologies that rely on those fluids during this lengthy and generally fun phase (expanding, defence, etc) for those who wish to explore them.

[moon69]

...
I understand the motivation for putting bots in chemical science, but it feels like an artificial limit. In real life, automated construction robots would obviously be largely a matter of logistic, computer science technology, not chemistry.
...

One of the huge issues with mobile automation currently is powering them... batteries are chemistry?

[jodokus31]

If you wanted to slow down the time it takes to require a tank for excess oil products, the solution is to tweak the basic oil processing output, and possibly the solid fuel requirement of chemical science packs. This way the player starts getting understanding of the items/fluids/infrastructure well before needing to mass produce the two secondary fluids, it also keeps available technologies that rely on those fluids during this lengthy and generally fun phase (expanding, defence, etc) for those who wish to explore them.

This would have been my prefered solution. No matter, if BOP stays 3 outputs or only 2.

But they seem to be settled on this new solution for now. I'm still split, why this should be the best solution. It's interesting and all, but something feels wrong, what is not easy to express in logical arguments...

[Koub]

[Koub] Excuse the digression, I'd like the contributors to this thread to take notice of this post of mine here:

Okay This is enough, pissed moderator alert.

I have waited as long as possible before stating aggressive moderation because I always favor liberty of speech and letting people contribute to the debate, and I know that on such contrevorsial subjects, passional people can get quite heated.

I have seen the debate starting from quite measured and polite drift towards aggressiveness, bashing and disrespect, and this is unacceptable, especially on a forum I'm responsible of moderating.

So now, be warned, I will mercilessly hack and slash through anything that can look, even marginally, like denigrement, bashing, or whatever bad behaviours the anonymity helps groing on the Internet. Whatever is not a constructive contribution will be moderated by me, no matter if it's pro or con the changes.

It's just a warning, but this is somehow relevant in this thread too.
Thanks for reading, and feel free to continue the discussion.

[FuryoftheStars]

I noticed basic oil processing changed before reading FF, and found it really convenient, wondering why I hadn't thought of it myself. Every time I set up oil, I've gotta make a big tank array for all that extra liquid, which is a distraction from the learning curve (for myself too, since I take long breaks and relearning it is part of the fun).

Every time I see people mention tank arrays to deal with extra fluids, I gotta ask... are you not converting it to solid fuel and then burning it in your smelters and boilers rather than coal?

[FuryoftheStars]

But oldBOP with only SF to balance (considering mass storing, brute force solution), without use of circuit conditions is quite challenging.

There were some less destructive methods that were suggested: https://mods.factorio.com/mod/SulfurFromOils

If you wanted to slow down the time it takes to require a tank for excess oil products, the solution is to tweak the basic oil processing output, and possibly the solid fuel requirement of chemical science packs. This way the player starts getting understanding of the items/fluids/infrastructure well before needing to mass produce the two secondary fluids, it also keeps available technologies that rely on those fluids during this lengthy and generally fun phase (expanding, defence, etc) for those who wish to explore them.

Also, moving sulfur off from PG could do that.

[conn11]

{...}

There are interesting things to do with oil in the green/red period, they're just not mandatory nor starting to get highlighted yet. It also takes making a lot more things to fill up a tank with byproducts than people think, not even accounting for solid fuel, there's far less "spamming" of tanks than people shout about.

I wouldn't advocate simplifying blue or removing intermediate products, that's the point of my post, there is actually no issue, it's just a slow part of the game.

If you wanted to prevent players from having "no" solution available untli blue science for basic oil processing, the solution is to make cracking a green tier technology, likely split from advanced oil processing. This way the player can tackle cracking ratios at their own pace, dependant upon how much of a problem they feel it is.

If you wanted to slow down the time it takes to require a tank for excess oil products, the solution is to tweak the basic oil processing output, and possibly the solid fuel requirement of chemical science packs. This way the player starts getting understanding of the items/fluids/infrastructure well before needing to mass produce the two secondary fluids, it also keeps available technologies that rely on those fluids during this lengthy and generally fun phase (expanding, defence, etc) for those who wish to explore them.

I didn’t get the impression (modifying blue science) from your post, the question was more of a rhetorical nature.
I personally would have preferred some early cracking too, but then again to really create a sufficient oil set up for all products requires the cucuit network, probably the most complex aspect of the game (although fluid balancing doesn’t really require any too elaborate networks). I think we could agree, that this is overwhelming for new players. So while definitely not outbursting in joy over new BOP I can understand why the devs ultimately did implement it and will probably stick with it. The now more relevant question seems to be, how to hinder oversimplification of mid to late game, as I‘ve mentioned before, LO directly for rocket fuel is a step in the right direction and how to -possibly- increase complexity of BOP. A good suggestion is to reuse oldBOP as intermediate variant (IOP). For balancing reasons it should output less PG. It would keep the old fluid handeling aspects, but would be skippable and optinal (though more efficient) until a player feels ready to try it out. Exploring further implications: AOP would become optional, but mainly in the way it was pre .17.60. (The consideration of usage of (new)BOP and suggested IOP over AOP, because adding water, is that much more complicated is rather unlikely)
The real question is, should (later) be more like pre .17.60, with abundend HO and LO and highly optional CL or be more about more scare liquid petrochemicals and presumably more needed CL in later game stages. To this question the community vocally consisting mainly of the expirienced playerbase and modders could contribute greatly.

[conn11]

But oldBOP with only SF to balance (considering mass storing, brute force solution), without use of circuit conditions is quite challenging.

There were some less destructive methods that were suggested: https://mods.factorio.com/mod/SulfurFromOils

yes, with the major disatvatange of having a massive sureplus of PG and only Plastic and inefficent SF to use it for. Maybe not a problem for a plastic hungry megabase, not so great for getting there. This would require drastically rebalancing a perfectly fine working system (AOP)

[FuryoftheStars]

But oldBOP with only SF to balance (considering mass storing, brute force solution), without use of circuit conditions is quite challenging.

There were some less destructive methods that were suggested: https://mods.factorio.com/mod/SulfurFromOils

yes, with the major disatvatange of having a massive sureplus of PG and only Plastic and inefficent SF to use it for. Maybe not a problem for a plastic hungry megabase, not so great for getting there. This would require drastically rebalancing a perfectly fine working system (AOP)

Sulfur not being from PG is dangerous, because it can easily happen that the player does not have enough PG sink (for example when starting to mine uranium and producing a lot of sulfuric acid, when producing accumulators and solar panels, maybe in combination with explosives). That way it is possible to get into a situation with "getting stuck" problems even if you already have proper Advanced oil processing set up including proper circuit-controlled cracking. The only way how this could happen otherwise is with Lubricant - typically only when you mass switch to express belts ... assuming you have enough iron plate/iron gear wheel production to show the lubricant being a bottleneck.

And having as much as you did on PG is what was causing the stuck issues in the first place. Incidentally, there was already a solution: solid fuel. But trying to do that much solid fuel from both HO & LO previously to keep up with the PG demands was too much. With sulfur on HO, you only really need to convert LO into SF to relieve the blockage (less PG needs to be converted due to it being used in plastics which has a much higher demand). You also could have allowed sulfur production from all 3 (same as SF), just with the better ratio on HO.

Also, would not require rebalancing AOP?

[conn11]

But oldBOP with only SF to balance (considering mass storing, brute force solution), without use of circuit conditions is quite challenging.

There were some less destructive methods that were suggested: https://mods.factorio.com/mod/SulfurFromOils

yes, with the major disatvatange of having a massive sureplus of PG and only Plastic and inefficent SF to use it for. Maybe not a problem for a plastic hungry megabase, not so great for getting there. This would require drastically rebalancing a perfectly fine working system (AOP)

Sulfur not being from PG is dangerous, because it can easily happen that the player does not have enough PG sink (for example when starting to mine uranium and producing a lot of sulfuric acid, when producing accumulators and solar panels, maybe in combination with explosives). That way it is possible to get into a situation with "getting stuck" problems even if you already have proper Advanced oil processing set up including proper circuit-controlled cracking. The only way how this could happen otherwise is with Lubricant - typically only when you mass switch to express belts ... assuming you have enough iron plate/iron gear wheel production to show the lubricant being a bottleneck.

And having as much as you did on PG is what was causing the stuck issues in the first place. Incidentally, there was already a solution: solid fuel. But trying to do that much solid fuel from both HO & LO previously to keep up with the PG demands was too much. With sulfur on HO, you only really need to convert LO into SF to relieve the blockage (less PG needs to be converted due to it being used in plastics which has a much higher demand). You also could have allowed sulfur production from all 3 (same as SF), just with the better ratio on HO.

Also, would not require rebalancing AOP?

rebalancing ment as in consequnece most likely redesinging SF as beeing made most efficently by PG changing the number of PG output in any OP and then consequently buffing HO output, because you need lubricant too. Massive changes, wich don't adress the aspect of initial complexity. Might this be valid or not, relevant enough for the devs to establish newBOP even against significant backlash from the community.

[crambaza]

crambaza is back for his daily therapy.

The Oil.

The original "problem" with Basic Oil has been relayed as:
Multiple outputs are too hard and when the outputs (light and heavy oil) back up, oil stops working, and new people don't notice, and then they rage, and cry and quit, and tell their friends how stupid the game is... (wait, sorry, I got carried away here, but that's generally the idea, factory stops working, frustration ensues)

Upon self reflection, I think the part that bothers me the most is that a fix for the "problem" with Basic Oil had already been implemented, and it seemed to be working.

The original fix was to make Blue Science need solid fuel. Needing solid fuel meant that both Heavy Oil and Light Oil could be converted to solid fuel, which you needed to progress. Great! Now your "extra" fluids had purpose.

So, let's examine the solutions.
A - Basic Oil outputs Pet Gas only, Blue Science needs sulfur
B - Blue Science needs solid fuel

Hmm, so both solutions say build Oil, then Blue.

So how does solution A solve the "problem"?

Solution A

So, really, the solution doesn't even do anything to fix the problem. It pushes the problem later. People refer to this as "dumbing down", which I kind of see. Solution A automatically burns off the extra fluids that were causing the problem (using unseen, yet fully functional flare stacks, which I agree with V, flare stacks are the ultimate dumbing down). BUT, I disagree that we are actually talking about "dumbing down" for the solution. It's not really dumbing down, because to launch the rocket, you need to upgrade to Advanced Oil, and deal with it anyway. It's more of a "complexity delay", than a dumbing down. Again, it's not doing anything but delaying it. And I know people are saying, the delay is good, it should be a "smoother curve". I understand, but let's really look at this delay.

We are talking new people, on their first playthrough.

It's been 1-2 hours getting to red science. Another few hours getting to green science. Another few hours figuring out you need a lot more Iron than you initially had, because now you have steel. Then a few hours to set up your first Oil pumps and Refinery. We are at the 6-20 hour mark here, depending on if you set up Military Science, before the "solution" is even going to be noticed. Now with 1 output only it will take a couple hours to take the next step to oil products: plastic and acid. A couple hours to set up blue science, then it's Advance Oil, and a couple of hours fixing the bad Oil set up. Add in tear down time, and then learning about multiple outputs, and you haven't "saved" any time, because it's all time playing the game. The "frustration" saved by having "easy oil" is lost during tear down, and setting up "hard oil". And all this is happening many hours into the game.

All solution A is doing is adding 2-4 hours of game play before the same bump is hit. This may seem like a huge victory, but remember the game has already been played for 6-20 hours. Is adding 2 hours that big a deal, when you haven't made it easier, you have just pushed the difficulty down the line?

I don't think so.

Solution B

Well, of course, this solution doesn't make multiple outputs any easier either. Both solutions will eventually throw multiple outputs at the player.

What this solution does do is give the "extra fluids" a purpose. Solid fuel. The player sees that solid fuel is needed for the next science, along with plastic for chips. They are guided to making the plastic with Pet Gas, and then solid fuel with the other outputs. Feed them into the system, and make Blue Science. This has the effect of lessening the ability for the system to stop working because there is a back up.

As well, they will notice that they have a lot of extra solid fuel, so the truly smart ones feed it into their smelters, because they notice that coal has a much better use as plastic than fuel now.

My demand for coal remains the same (instead of skyrocketing under solution A, because I need plastic, and still coal as fuel).

So what crambaza

Yeah, I know. I'm only complaining because I hate all change.

But maybe, just maybe, the problem was already solved. I agree with the posters that said the original solution should have been preserved in this release to stable, and then use 0.18 to mess around with it. Then you can actually see if it was a good fix, which I think it was, and have shown above. As well, if it wasn't perfect, then tweak the outputs to find balance.

And, of course, above all, stop pushing those Construction Robots!

To everyone, keep it civil. I'm annoyed because of the change, but I'm trying to be respectful, and encourage discourse. Yelling at people who have already given you hours of super enjoyable game play isn't very helpful. I get that emotions are running high, but much like the Basic Oil recipe used to be, you have to find useful things to do with the multiple outputs you are experiencing. Don't "dumb yourself down" and only output 1 resource, anger.

[Antaios]

I didn’t get the impression (modifying blue science) from your post, the question was more of a rhetorical nature.

This is more of something I posted later, and is moreseo a response dev posts on singular specific things they wished to address.

I personally would have preferred some early cracking too, but then again to really create a sufficient oil set up for all products requires the cucuit network, probably the most complex aspect of the game (although fluid balancing doesn’t really require any too elaborate networks). I think we could agree, that this is overwhelming for new players. So while definitely not outbursting in joy over new BOP I can understand why the devs ultimately did implement it and will probably stick with it.

This is absolutely untrue, and is the point of my large post, especially the first half. I even went back and added a couple paragraphs I posted later to it which extended this point.
Any idea that oil requires circuitry to be working sufficiently is a case of an experienced player wanting ratios to be the best and wastage/downtime to be minimal, it's perfectionism. It is absolutely possible to run a more than sufficient oil industry without circuitry whatsoever. And as I stated in my first post, the specific claims about what is difficult to understand about oil don't have a particularly solid foundation as they are easily fallible. So I do not agree.

[FuryoftheStars]

rebalancing ment as in consequnece most likely redesinging SF as beeing made most efficently by PG changing the number of PG output in any OP and then consequently buffing HO output, because you need lubricant too. Massive changes, wich don't adress the aspect of initial complexity. Might this be valid or not, relevant enough for the devs to establish newBOP even against significant backlash from the community.

SF wouldn't need a redesign; keep most efficient at LO.
Maybe some of the production numbers overall need to be tweaked, but that's still far better than completely gutting BOP and watching the splash damage hit 15 different techs (that is a massive change). At early oil stage, you won't be using a lot of lubricant, yet. And later, when you are, you can balance between BOP, AOP, and Coal Liquefaction.

And as has been point out several times, the 3 fluids was not the complexity. And even if it were, dropping it to 2 (HO+PG) would alleviate it significantly with still less fallout than what they did.

[TurboJetXII]

Seems to be a lot of angst here and as someone who rarely posts much, but loves the game, I wanted to note I'm fine with the changes. I think it's great how the developers listen to the community, but at some point they need to make the game they want to make. If it is a bit smoother or more complicated set of recipes then I'm happy with that.

I will say that the modding support with Factorio is amazing, and I'm sure anyone wishing for a weightier tech tree already has plenty of options. I tried a Bob's mods run a while back and honestly it was a bit overwhelming...

Anyway, just wanted to let the developers know not everyone is out with pitchforks

[BlueTemplar]

I tried a Bob's mods run a while back and honestly it was a bit overwhelming...

The recommendation (at least in 0.16), was to do Bob's mods without bobelectronics at first.