Friday Facts #189 - Specifying the 1.0

[vanatteveldt]

Why would you spend time setting up factories for, say, mining drills, when you can just hand-craft them on site, and you don't have to split your iron production again?

The answer is: when you need a lot of them. If you have outposts on large deposits you might need 100 mines to build a single outpost, and not only is that very time consuming, the amount of gears and circuits you need to lug along gets ridiculous. On marathon a mine is 10 gear, 5 circuit, and 20 plate, so instead of carrying 1 stack of 50 mines you would have to carry 5 stacks of gears, over a stack of circuits, and 10 stacks of plate. Assemblers are even more expensive (again on marathon), at 8 circuits, 15 gears, and 29 iron. Also it is extremely convenient to make an outpost building train that has all the basic materials and that is auto-reloaded at the base, requiring their automation.

Also, you don't really need to split off iron again. I usually split off one line of iron+circuits and use that to automate all the necessities such as belts, miners, assemblers, etc, outputting in stack-limited chests, later replaced by logistic chests.

What happened to dirty mining? D: That's the one single feature I've wanted since the first few times I've played Factorio!

Totally agree, something to improve end-game resource gathering would be highly appreciated, especially if it is infinite and has challenging logistics, for example requiring sulphuric acid and a washing/separating system. Even requiring water would be interesting as it might require you to ship water around in trains.

[FasterJump]

What happened to dirty mining? D: That's the one single feature I've wanted since the first few times I've played Factorio!

I agree, I feel like this is the only thing the game miss right now.
However, I like the way we currently deal with unwanted small ores patchs by "clearing" them from the surface or the map.

So here's my 2 cents idea:
1) Big ore patchs have the usual ore(let's say 52k) + an amount of dirty ore (12k)
2) When you exhaust the usual ore, there is only the 12k of dirty ore. You can choose to:
-mine the dirty one the usual way (high finite yield) but it would be destructive,
-mine the dirty ore with appropriate drills that doesn't deplete the dirty field, needs additionnal processing, and has a low yield (could be dependant on the amount of dirty ore (12k))

[RainbowCrane]

Same as the previous week, we have spent most of our time bug hunting. This time, the disparity between how stable the game felt in our playtesting, and the current 240 bug report count is the biggest I have felt. I guess that this is the tax of having quite a lot of players playing the game, so we just go there and fight these one by one until it is done.

Kovarex, As a fellow developer and project manager (though mostly of much larger, 20+ programmer projects), I understand the feeling but let me assure you that you folks are doing great. It's always a letdown after the big push to release to find all that stuff that slipped through the cracks, but your quick responses in fixing the truly game-breaking bugs show that you're dedicated to putting out a quality product. Users will find paths through your code that you never thought of, and it's truly not possible and not worth it to test every boundary case before software hits release.

Don't sweat whatever negative feedback you're getting, know that those of us who understand software and game development appreciate how smoothly your release process works and how satisfying your game is to play. Kudos to all the team.

[aRatNamedSammy]

arty train cool ... underground lengt... nice
but, why only "possible" about spidertron?
seriously i kinda dream of using it since i first see it in a FFF.. it could fit so perfectly now with nuclear power, like as exemple, his fuel could be uranium bars instead of coal.. a so big engine need some excessive power
or maybe later, like an add-on or extension.. or a mod

[Ormek]

So many good and positive comments! I really miss a "like" button right now

Yes! Please polish and finish 1.0!

It will be hard, because the last 5% are hardest to achieve. Also you will feel that too little is gained by each step as no new funky parts are added. Still, continue on that track! It is required to get a final product that is sold to the masses!

I believe that polishing will require lots of additional level design with the given features. While having a sandbox is great, it requires in depth knowledge of the game mechanics. And these are best thought by tutorials and challenging scenarios combined into a story campaign. The feedback you get here is mainly from experienced players. For the finishing touches you will need first impression feedback from new players.

Anyway, All the Best for the final stretch that reaches to the end of this year!

[AcolyteOfRocket]

So many good and positive comments! I really miss a "like" button right now

Yes! Please polish and finish 1.0!

It will be hard, because the last 5% are hardest to achieve. Also you will feel that too little is gained by each step as no new funky parts are added. Still, continue on that track! It is required to get a final product that is sold to the masses!

I believe that polishing will require lots of additional level design with the given features. While having a sandbox is great, it requires in depth knowledge of the game mechanics. And these are best thought by tutorials and challenging scenarios combined into a story campaign. The feedback you get here is mainly from experienced players. For the finishing touches you will need first impression feedback from new players.

Anyway, All the Best for the final stretch that reaches to the end of this year!

Factorio soooo does not need levels, the fact that the game works as a sandbox is what makes it so brilliant. If it had advertised a scripted campaign I might not have bought it at all.

[Zool]

Factorio has provided an insane amount of quality and fun for the 20 bucks it costs.
Its time to make it 1.0 and finish this part of the development.

I'm really looking forward to future DLCs or expansions, and hope that the developers decide to continue their awesome work on this project.

[Lav]

Perhaps don't give power armor at the start, give a construction suit which has slots, but offers little protection.

Otherwise, great news, currently playtesting new science.

[kovarex]

I don't know what happens after 1.0. There are many possibilities, but I hope that it is understandable that we don't want to have our hands tied by any promises.

[TripleOmega]

I like added length for underground belts, but I don't like the lengths that have been selected as it doesn't fit well with common uses. Going from 4(yellow) to 8(blue) for example doesn't allow you to go under an extra 4 wide bus lane as they are spaced 2 apart and would thus require a length of 10 not 8. 8 Also doesn't let you do cool stuff like go under a production setup as belt-inserter-assembler-inserter-belt requires 9 and double belt requires 11. And that's mostly talking about blue belt, red belt seems very lackluster as that added two spaces doesn't really do much most of the time.

Increasing the cost based on the added length also doesn't sit that well with me as people often straight upgrade old setups and also don't always use the full length as it can be counterproductive. This mostly just makes things more expensive with little return.

All in all I still feel compelled to use a mod to increase underground belt length after this and I don't think that can be the point of a change like this.

[shikashi18]

Oh god!!! PLEASE LET THE ARTILLERY TRAINS BE A PERMANENT FEATURE <3

[AcolyteOfRocket]

I like added length for underground belts, but I don't like the lengths that have been selected as it doesn't fit well with common uses. Going from 4(yellow) to 8(blue) for example doesn't allow you to go under an extra 4 wide bus lane as they are spaced 2 apart and would thus require a length of 10 not 8. 8 Also doesn't let you do cool stuff like go under a production setup as belt-inserter-assembler-inserter-belt requires 9 and double belt requires 11. And that's mostly talking about blue belt, red belt seems very lackluster as that added two spaces doesn't really do much most of the time.

Increasing the cost based on the added length also doesn't sit that well with me as people often straight upgrade old setups and also don't always use the full length as it can be counterproductive. This mostly just makes things more expensive with little return.

All in all I still feel compelled use a mod to increase underground belt length after this and I don't think that can be the point of a change like this.

For me I think I am discovering that upgrading belts is a pain, so I am less likely to do it. This means that not being able to go completely underneath a 4+2+4 belt bus not such a big deal, and anyway the "common arrangement" is to pop up after 4 belts, which you can still do.

The 9 width will give the opportunity to build bigger arrangements later in the game, and I like the fact that this variety exists.

Of course this is all highly dependent on how one plays, but I suggest thinking carefully about how you play, you might find the express underground 9-width isn't so bad.

[TripleOmega]

For me I think I am discovering that upgrading belts is a pain, so I am less likely to do it. This means that not being able to go completely underneath a 4+2+4 belt bus not such a big deal, and anyway the "common arrangement" is to pop up after 4 belts, which you can still do.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Why does not wanting to upgrade belt make it okay to not be able to go underneath 2 bus lanes? As for still being able to pop up after 4 belts, that completely defeats the purpose of having longer lengths. Worse yet now you are even paying more for it than you were before.

The 9 width will give the opportunity to build bigger arrangements later in the game, and I like the fact that this variety exists.
Of course this is all highly dependent on how one plays, but I suggest thinking carefully about how you play, you might find the express underground 9-width isn't so bad.

Blue belt is 8 not 9 and while it does certainly provide opportunities they are not as numerous as I would have liked. This is especially obvious if you've used one of the mods before that made underground belt longer as their reaches were far longer than the current vanilla setup.

[CrushedIce]

The overall feeling was, that we might have gone little bit too far with all the science pack extensions, so I wanted to make it slightly less expensive. So we changed it that the science pack 3 (the blue one) requires mining drill instead of assembling machine now.

I'm currently playing on the deathworld pre-set and I believe you overlooked something here, because mining drills cost 70 iron and 25 copper per, whereas assembling machines only cost 35 iron and 15 copper per. Instead of making it slightly less expensive you have doubled the costs with this change, making blue science extraordinarily expensive.

Exactly what i thought, doubling the blue science costs is too much in my oppinion (even for Deathworld). Some (midgame) technologies require now whole iron deposits...

[GyroByte]

Are we ever going to get those space platforms and dirty mining you talked about?

[POPISowyNumer]

I don't know what happens after 1.0.

I am damn sure there's more than enough of people willing to lob another 10 or 20$ in your direction just to keep you working on this wonder.
Of course you may choose any other project, but with Wube's track record whatever it will be it's a day-zero purchase for me.


And on topic of 1.0, do you have any plans for electric trains? They could fit greatly with nuclear power, since now coal can be eliminated from electric production altogether. Also there's barely any feeling of technological progress with trains, especially since among various greatly upgrading techs like T2 Electric Distibution or Kovarex Process rails sit indigently with two techs that are basically must-haves and one upgrade chain that's 100% optional. Higher tiers of rail engines and carriages could easily alleviate it.

[brunzenstein]

Electric trains would be great indeed

[AcolyteOfRocket]

Why does not wanting to upgrade belt make it okay to not be able to go underneath 2 bus lanes? As for still being able to pop up after 4 belts, that completely defeats the purpose of having longer lengths. Worse yet now you are even paying more for it than you were before.

You seem to be assuming that the main use of 9-length (8 width) undergrounds will be to cross double bus lanes, but I doubt that is true, although it may be true for some people. But what I do expect is that people will build bus lanes that are wider, using the full 8 (or 10 if we following your suggestion) width. If it is 8, then the power of 2 will nicely break up the bus construction mechanics using the existing 2x2, 4x4 splitter combos. If we go to 10, folks will complain that they can't make a 2x5, 3x3+1, that topological bottlenecks have moved away from their existing sweet spot. So whichever way they go the devs can't win.

I'm not saying 8 width doesn't give problems, I am suggesting that if you look at the big picture you may find that 10 width isn't the band-aid you think it is. And if it is, yes there are always mods, but a vanilla game isn't bad just because some modder adds a bigger number to some game parameter, its up to the individual player to make that choice for themselves.

[Vasekdvor]

If we speaking about a possible underground belt length research and the problems with a blueprint.

So, what about if you add an condition that allows you researching "Automated construction" (which allows you make blueprints), after you research all "research in underground belt length" ?

[Lav]

If we speaking about a possible underground belt length research and the problems with a blueprint.

So, what about if you add an condition that allows you researching "Automated construction" (which allows you make blueprints), after you research all "research in underground belt length" ?

As of 0.15, blueprints are available from the start.