Ban quality modules from asteroid crushers

[coffee-factorio]

If you operate off a platform, you quickly realize that you're up against a shortage of coal more than anything else. You might be watching for sunk cost fallacy specifically because a 120x240 meter platform is going to take 8 hours to make at 1 ips of foundation. Making that coal takes sulfur, so when you look at doing intermediate processes it is kind of like this:

* I could invest in what I do different elsewhere.

* I could reroll for a 1 in 40 rate that will give me a variety of materials. After the reroll it's going to get multiplied by 1.25 times a shower of ores at minimum. If the dev's allow the rocks coming back to occur more often then that 1.25 times is going up due to productivity modules and research.

* I could do different everywhere else and use this platform for transportation using normal quality LDS & Blue chips.

And the guns you put on are always running. You can void items but that could make a ups drain. Engine particles can make a UPS drain. But you have to be there, running a few platforms at once is going to be necessary because planetary science and something needs to go to the shattered planet. So you have to balance against multiple ships operating at once. And if you want to save on rocket launches, doing work on a platform immediately distributes all but a few items.

If it is perfectly balanced and the appearance of a mechanical advantage is only that, it's still happening in a place where the sunk cost fallacy can really hurt a player since they're investing a lot of emotion into their machine. If you do 120x240, why not do 180x360? If you make a mistake, do you what? Delete the surface and all the foundation on it? This is my opinion, don't pretend to know the dev's minds.

Legendary science has real advantages over normals with asteroids. Without asteroids, iron / ice throughput would become a bottleneck.

So you need that much SPM. In not modded Space Age. What for exactly? If this is your own goal then ok. If you see that as a gameplay mandatory that explain please.

I think the idea is that it motivates legendary science.

I think of it like this:
If you can't do a legendary science for 1 : 6 investment, all the other productivity multipliers happen evenly. So why am I cleaning this copper plate up if instead of being sloppy with quality I can do what I always did and hit 10+ips on a legendary plant?

As for the notion that ice or iron is the bottleneck... I mean that's kind of the issue with platforms right there. Ice you can get an interesting cycle off of on Aquilo by making it with ammonia, then recycling ice platforms. Granted, it isn't a component so you get it at a worse rate. But you can do it in bulk.

Iron has an interesting cycle with blue chips, and belts can be attached by a process that does quality from cradle to grave and at a rate that is interesting.

Sulfur is always somehow going to be painful because it's a catalyst.

[crimsonarmy]

Legendary science has real advantages over normals with asteroids. Without asteroids, iron / ice throughput would become a bottleneck.

So you need that much SPM. In not modded Space Age. What for exactly? If this is your own goal then ok. If you see that as a gameplay mandatory that explain please.

I think the idea is that it motivates legendary science.

I think of it like this:
If you can't do a legendary science for 1 : 6 investment, all the other productivity multipliers happen evenly. So why am I cleaning this copper plate up if instead of being sloppy with quality I can do what I always did and hit 10+ips on a legendary plant?

As for the notion that ice or iron is the bottleneck... I mean that's kind of the issue with platforms right there. Ice you can get an interesting cycle off of on Aquilo by making it with ammonia, then recycling ice platforms. Granted, it isn't a component so you get it at a worse rate. But you can do it in bulk.

Iron has an interesting cycle with blue chips, and belts can be attached by a process that does quality from cradle to grave and at a rate that is interesting.

Sulfur is always somehow going to be painful because it's a catalyst.

These are some really cool ideas. (For context: I have made a casino then got annoyed because of a bunch of small things and I am now doing quality some other ways.)

[Green Cat]

How about a different solution? A BEFORE you start the game, slider. Where we can ajust how much ridiculus gambling exist? You know, the thing that only people who play online games and other similar additions enjoy. After all, we paid to have access to quality yet it's behind a GAMBLING wall??????? Even the modul 3 has only a 25% increase vs moduel 2????? this is screeming they don't want people to have access to quality unless they gamble.

So, the ideea of the slider is simple. Default is default. Lower = lower chance. Higher = higer chance. As an exemple, at max, 2 legendary Quality moduel 3, will turn anything they create 100% into legendary. Again, this is if that slider is at MAX, and NOT default. Default remains the current version. I'm just suggesting this because it's simple not normal that we paid to get quality and it's behind a GAMBLING wall no one asked for.

PS for OP: just don't add Quality modules on crushers. Oh, you don't like that I'm telling you how to play the game? well that's exactly what you, and the devs did. But hey, quality is optional, we only paid for it so we need to use mods to fix it.

PS for Devs: Many of us know you got inspiered by WoW, a game we did not want to come to factorio. So, could you please do us all a favore and actually fix the Quality for the DLC?

Here are 5 exemples: A slider to get rid of gambling (aka what I wrote till now). Adding a tick box for enemies to have quality (tons of mods exist that do this, why it's not a default, i don't get it). A drop box that can change how many quality level exist. Aka the current 5 is default. And for us to be able to increase max 10? (I used mods, and I noticed a lot of stuff are hard cap at 10, and some, will get bugged). And the reason why I mentioned WoW: just because thoes are the terms used in Wow, can you please let us rename the "quality ranks" without us needing to add mods that might or might not mess up when used with other mods?

PS for anyone who says: just use mods. As I meantion, we paid for this, why is the solution to fix a paid DLC to use mods and not a vanilla standar game? Because as I mentioned over and over again, only add BEFORE start of the game tick box and slider. Default remains default, just let us ajust the values. And if this is a core vanilla thing, there is low to no risk of bugs or other issues when used with other mods

[crimsonarmy]

How about a different solution? A BEFORE you start the game, slider. Where we can ajust how much ridiculus gambling exist? You know, the thing that only people who play online games and other similar additions enjoy. After all, we paid to have access to quality yet it's behind a GAMBLING wall??????? Even the modul 3 has only a 25% increase vs moduel 2????? this is screeming they don't want people to have access to quality unless they gamble.

So, the ideea of the slider is simple. Default is default. Lower = lower chance. Higher = higer chance. As an exemple, at max, 2 legendary Quality moduel 3, will turn anything they create 100% into legendary. Again, this is if that slider is at MAX, and NOT default. Default remains the current version. I'm just suggesting this because it's simple not normal that we paid to get quality and it's behind a GAMBLING wall no one asked for.

PS for OP: just don't add Quality modules on crushers. Oh, you don't like that I'm telling you how to play the game? well that's exactly what you, and the devs did. But hey, quality is optional, we only paid for it so we need to use mods to fix it.

PS for Devs: Many of us know you got inspiered by WoW, a game we did not want to come to factorio. So, could you please do us all a favore and actually fix the Quality for the DLC?

Here are 5 exemples: A slider to get rid of gambling (aka what I wrote till now). Adding a tick box for enemies to have quality (tons of mods exist that do this, why it's not a default, i don't get it). A drop box that can change how many quality level exist. Aka the current 5 is default. And for us to be able to increase max 10? (I used mods, and I noticed a lot of stuff are hard cap at 10, and some, will get bugged). And the reason why I mentioned WoW: just because thoes are the terms used in Wow, can you please let us rename the "quality ranks" without us needing to add mods that might or might not mess up when used with other mods?

PS for anyone who says: just use mods. As I meantion, we paid for this, why is the solution to fix a paid DLC to use mods and not a vanilla standar game? Because as I mentioned over and over again, only add BEFORE start of the game tick box and slider. Default remains default, just let us ajust the values. And if this is a core vanilla thing, there is low to no risk of bugs or other issues when used with other mods

I think you misunderstand the fundamental point of quality. It isn't primarily gambling. Imagine if someone plays the lottery 1, 10, or 100 times, that's gambling. If someone plays the lottery 10,000, 100,000, or 1,000,000 times the randomness evens out (there are people who noticed unbalanced lotteries and made money off of it). The same is true in Factorio you can gamble with quality, but the main benefit is from when the scale is so large that the randomness doesn't matter.

As to the mods thing, you paid to have the DLC and very good mod integration with it. If something benefits everyone (or the vast majority of people) it should be in the base game, otherwise use the very well integrated modding system.

[Stargateur]

Go take a break

[Hurkyl]

Benefitting from 'unbalanced lotteries' happens rather frequently -- you just have to be the one running the lottery.

In the analogy, if someone views themselves as the gambler and not the casino boss in the analogy, they're building their casino wrong.

(unless that's specifically the experience you wanted and designed for it, I suppose)

[coffee-factorio]

How about a different solution?

We were talking about asteroid rerolling.
Consider starting a new topic on this in idea and suggestions.

These are some really cool ideas. (For context: I have made a casino then got annoyed because of a bunch of small things and I am now doing quality some other ways.)

It's a hard one for me because when I study it, it burns me out a lot. I'm glad you find some value in it. Be rather careful, I've yet to see better than item per minute rates on a lot of stuff, even if it works well. And the tradeoffs are usually really stiff in this system.

[mmmPI]

Benefitting from 'unbalanced lotteries' happens rather frequently -- you just have to be the one running the lottery.

In the analogy, if someone views themselves as the gambler and not the casino boss in the analogy, they're building their casino wrong.

(unless that's specifically the experience you wanted and designed for it, I suppose)

Yes exactly !

I heard that the devs have said they are banning quality modules for asteroid reprocessing. Have they said why they ultimately decided on it?

Was it really that it was "easier" to design? Or something about asteroids being too plentiful making this too good? Or because it's too good of a hook for getting quality plastic? Something else? Or have they not said at all?

For all i know it's a one liner 6 month ago by 1 dev on discord that mentionned the removal of quality module from asteroid reprocessing, and it was implied that it was too good in general from the context of the discusssion, but no precise explanations. Now at the release of space age, devs mentionned that such good system was a reward for players that went thru the effort of setting-it up. To me it shows things can still change ( maybe even in 2.2 ). And even then dev literally wrote : it's balancing that can be done by 1 lane of data, so i take that as "trivial to mod".

I know Wube always deliver on their announce, but here it might also be a personnal message from one dev taken out of context where some plans are conflated for an announce, or just one side of a more in-depth rebalancing is understood as the whole thing, maybe i've missed some other annouces too though !