Suggestion to change Whitelist/Blacklist terms

Ideas that are too old (too many things have changed since) and ones which won't be implemented for certain reasons or if there are obviously better suggestions.

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Re: Suggestion to change Whitelist/Blacklist terms

Post by ssilk »

Impatient wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:25 pm
I am ambivalent about that statement. But I also have a strong opinion about it. YES, people who want to discriminate, will invent new ways to discriminate. BUT language reinforces the way we think and ultimately the way we feel.
Language is the mirror of what we think and feel. It cannot be distincted.
ssilk wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:36 am
It’s in the heads, not on paper.
It is both. First, it is in the heads. Second, what is on paper reflects what is in the heads. Third, what is on paper influences what is going into the heads. A mind, which is indifferent about color, good and bad, will learn that white means positive and black means negative.
I can’t influence what others will learn. But the brain learns mainly from humans, how they behave, how they speak, how they use words, not from words themselves.

Even if I write balkc and wtihe wrong, the brain connects that whit what has been learned. I can’t influence that, that happens all in the brain of the reader.

Another example: A sheet of paper is neutral, even if it is white. It’s normally not connected with meanings like “good” or “bad”. If you put black lines on it, that forms letters doesn’t change that. The letters form words. Even then this is just a piece of paper with some text on it... Or is it now something that is good or bad? I don’t know. I just know, that the text needs to be read, to decide that.

So we can say: The process of discrimination starts in the head of who writes the text and ends in the head who reads it. It has nothing to do what words are used, nor in which color they are written.

Another example: think to a chess-board. Does a chess-board discriminate, because there are black fields on it?

black white black white black white black white
white black white black white black white black
black white black white black white black white
white black white black white black white black
black white black white black white black white
white black white black white black white black
black white black white black white black white
white black white black white black white black

When you read that: Is this now more positive or more negative? 8-) sorry when it looks like I make fun, but It is just an example to show how brains works: now when you look at this field of words the meaning should be different. Only when you look at the single words this meaning change.



And I don’t say “just learn that black and white are not discriminatory by themselves”. It doesn’t work like so. The brain cannot forget what has been learned.

We cannot forget. We can only rewrite. We cannot rewrite the paths in the brain in a day. That takes time. It takes some effort. It hurts. We need to be relaxed and we need to want it. And it’s a process, that is useless, when others will not follow.

But it is just too simple, to mean that the solution is to forbid or change the words that hurt. It’s just too simple to kick the statues of the dictator from their sockets and believe now everything is okay. I could add many more examples in history where a society needed to rewrite their “brain paths“ instead of silencing over “it” (because it hurts too much to change it), and instead they remove the things (and words) that reminds them to “it”. Whatever this “it” was.

What I say is: don’t concentrate on words. The effort that goes into this thread doesn’t change anything. 😢
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Re: Suggestion to change Whitelist/Blacklist terms

Post by Deadlock989 »

kovarex wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:32 pm
Ok, the proper answer would be:
No, I don't think we should comply with terrosist demands. Because this is how I view the progressivist activities lately.
That is the stupidest thing I have ever seen you say.

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Re: Suggestion to change Whitelist/Blacklist terms

Post by Theikkru »

Deadlock989 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:33 am
That is the stupidest thing I have ever seen you say.
Welcome to 2020, when rioting, looting, and arson is the cure for racism. Sure sounds like terrorism to me.

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Re: Suggestion to change Whitelist/Blacklist terms

Post by mmmPI »

https://southparkepisode.com/tv-series/ ... ch-online/

I have seen this 20 min educative videoclip long time ago and i can't help thinking about it.
Please don't be so serious.

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Re: Suggestion to change Whitelist/Blacklist terms

Post by sparr »

Could we please move the discussion of racism and terrorism to viewforum.php?f=27 ?

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Re: Suggestion to change Whitelist/Blacklist terms

Post by 5thHorseman »

sparr wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:44 pm
Could we please move the discussion of racism and terrorism to viewforum.php?f=27 ?
Or even better /dev/null ?

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Re: Suggestion to change Whitelist/Blacklist terms

Post by Koub »

[Koub] This suggestion has outlived its usefulness. Locking the thread.
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Rename all references to "master/slave" nomenclature

Post by AniArtifice »

Hello,

I do not think I really need to explain the problematic nature of "master/slave" nomenclature commonly used in electronics and coding (at least I really hope I don't). I was reminded that this shows up in the Sound settings ("Master" volume) and found myself wondering where else in the game this pops up... I think it would be really amazing if these mentions were changed to parent/child or something similar. "Master" volume could become "Global" volume, for example.

Just sayin', "master/slave" is hella racist nomenclature and sure, it will not impact the game mechanics, but damn it would be nice for some deverlopers to actually care enough about this sort of thing enough to implement it.

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Re: Rename all references to "master/slave" nomenclature

Post by FuryoftheStars »

"Master/slave" is not inherently racist. In and of itself, it has nothing to do with race.

I wish this terminology BS would just go die in a hole.
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Re: Rename all references to "master/slave" nomenclature

Post by DaveMcW »

(Don't tell him about the whitelist and blacklist filters. :shock:)

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Re: Rename all references to "master/slave" nomenclature

Post by kirazy »

AniArtifice wrote:
Thu Feb 17, 2022 9:43 pm
Just sayin', "master/slave" is hella racist nomenclature
It's not. You've been conditioned to jump at shadows, and are doing so now.

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Re: Rename all references to "master/slave" nomenclature

Post by AniArtifice »

What I don't understand is why y'all are so determined to erase the genocidal and racist history of humanity, especially in the US, where A LOT of folks play this game. What I REALLY don't understand why you feel compelled to troll and gaslight anyone that brings it up. :roll:

It's a small change that would show that the developers are thinking even a little about this kind of thing and not just their quarterly profits. It would be refreshing.

P.S.: Good mention of the whitelist and blacklist filters; easy to change to something like Include/Omit, or something similar.


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Re: Rename all references to "master/slave" nomenclature

Post by FuryoftheStars »

AniArtifice wrote:
Fri Feb 18, 2022 1:08 am
What I don't understand is why y'all are so determined to erase the genocidal and racist history of humanity, especially in the US, where A LOT of folks play this game. What I REALLY don't understand why you feel compelled to troll and gaslight anyone that brings it up. :roll:

It's a small change that would show that the developers are thinking even a little about this kind of thing and not just their quarterly profits. It would be refreshing.

P.S.: Good mention of the whitelist and blacklist filters; easy to change to something like Include/Omit, or something similar.
Well, assuming that you're not the troll, that's because the terms "master/slave" have F- all to do with "the genocidal and racist history of humanity". It seriously doesn't.

If we go down this path where every term that's ever remotely been linked to something bad gets abandoned and replaced with something else, then we're going to be changing out 90% of words in the language.

Obvious racist terms, like ones that were explicitly created to be racist, I completely agree should not ever be used. But not words that happen to apply or someone somewhere managed to co-op and make it sound racist when used in certain contexts.... :roll:
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Re: Rename all references to "master/slave" nomenclature

Post by ssilk »

An article I found about this subject:
https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/news/h ... gineering/

And
DaveMcW wrote:
Thu Feb 17, 2022 11:33 pm
(Don't tell him about the whitelist and blacklist filters. :shock:)
which is discussed here

viewtopic.php?f=71&t=70233 Suggestion to change Whitelist/Blacklist terms

And Kirazy already quoted the opinion of Kovarex:
kovarex wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:55 pm
lol ..... NO
Which is not my opinion. But seeing in the aspect of this board (gameplay-value): From my sight I think this suggestion will not affect any aspect of Factorio’s game-play.

And from another standpoint: only a very small amount of people (those that have strong feelings and associations about it — most of them not playing Factorio) will be affected.

On the other side: it’s just a name. But it needs to be changed not only in Factorio, but also in wiki and much more places. I think it takes one or maybe two days to do all changes.

Hm. If Factorio’s development would begin today, I think this would be a very good suggestion.

But now? Hm. This is like breaking down dictators from its pedestal to remove all memories of them. And give history a second chance to repeat the mistakes.

My strong (and quite philosophical) opinion about erasing/replacing such things is, that wrong things should not just be erased. They should be placed in its context of time, so that we can remember them in future and eventually not making the same failure again.
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Re: Rename all references to "master/slave" nomenclature

Post by aka13 »

Man how I love it that kovarex is not on board with thoughtcrime and shizoterics.
Americans are really out of their mind with "forbidden words" in the last couple of decades. A country famed for its "free speech", how ironical.
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Re: Rename all references to "master/slave" nomenclature

Post by Pi-C »

AniArtifice wrote:
Thu Feb 17, 2022 9:43 pm
Just sayin', "master/slave" is hella racist nomenclature
It only is "racist" in the context of US history:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery wrote: Historically, when people were enslaved, it was often because they were indebted, broke the law, or suffered a military defeat: The duration of their enslavement might be for life, or for a fixed period of time after which their freedom was granted. Individuals, then, usually became slaves involuntarily, due to force or coercion, although there was also voluntary slavery to pay a debt or obtain money for some purpose.
Also, slavery existed way back, even before the first states in North America declared their independence from England, even before the first Conquistadores set foot on American soil (and, consequently, did kill and enslave the indigenous population before bringing over slaves from the Caribbeans and, later, Africa), even before the rise and fall of the Greek and Roman empires. There definitely was slavery even in Africa, even before those times (ever heard of the Egyptian pharaohs?), and it definitely exists even as of today (though it has evolved).

The above is by no means a vindication of slavery, but meant to show that the concept of "master" and "slave" is not inherently "racist". (Personally, I try to avoid the word "racist" wherever I can because I don't think different human "races" even exist. True, around the globe, humans have differently colored skins or other traits that make them fit for their "native habitats". But the distinction between human "races" is just an artificial concept made to establish some groups as superior or inferior in relation to others and, thus, justify that they can be exploited, suppressed, or even extinguished. I wouldn't even say I'm against "racism" because that would acknowledge and confirm the concept that humanity is, indeed, divided into different "races".)

Scrap all ideological ballast, and what remains of "slavery" is that one side -- the "master" -- commands, and the other side -- the "slave" -- obeys. (This will go on as long as the "master" isn't able and the "slave" isn't willing to sustain that any longer. At this point, the system breaks down.) Isn't that a rather fitting metaphor for what we're dealing with here -- one main switch that controls all other settings?
I think it would be really amazing if these mentions were changed to parent/child
Really, the opposition "parent/child" should be better than "master/slave"? That's like jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire -- you're either not up to date on what may be offending (which is understandable, as nowadays almost everybody seems to be sensitive to something or other), or you don't care about discrimination as long as it's of a form that doesn't affect you personally! Did you ever hear about ageism/agism? This concept has been around for some decades as well and describes discrimination based on age. Originally it was meant to describe discrimination of old people by the young, later it was also used to describe discrimination of younger people and children by adults. The fight against ageism (directed against children) seems to have become quite fashionable in the recent past -- especially among people working in the field of education. (In Germany, the most vociferous proponents of anti-ageism seem to be among those who also oppose compulsory schooling, so if you're from Germany, chances are you haven't heard of "ageism" yet.)

Anyway, to argue for abolishing the terms "master" and "slave" because it may offend a group of people, and requesting to replace these terms with others that may be equally offending to other people, is not helpful at all. Time could be spent much better on squashing bugs (I sincerely apologize to any entomologist whose feelings I may have hurt by using this phrase) or adding new features instead.
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Re: Suggestion to change Whitelist/Blacklist terms

Post by Koub »

[Koub] I'm merging both threads (Blacklist/Whitelist and Master/Slave). And I'll be merging all future similar threads.
Also letting the thread locked, unless the dev team asks me to unlock it (or my fellow moderators convince me to do so) : this forum is not a place to discuss those subjects.
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