[MOD 0.12.x] Marathon 1.0.3

[KeepOnBuilding]

Hehe, didn't you like my super slow start iron axe recipe?

I have managed to play through to blue science with these recipes, and haven't found anything terribly unbalanced. Everything is slow, as it should be

Thanks for the release, and
KeepOnBuilding!

[Afforess]

Hehe, didn't you like my super slow start iron axe recipe?

I have managed to play through to blue science with these recipes, and haven't found anything terribly unbalanced. Everything is slow, as it should be

Thanks for the release, and
KeepOnBuilding!

I removed it because when you start a fresh map, with your recipe change, you actually lack the resources to make any iron axes at all, making a new game super-frustrating.

[KeepOnBuilding]

I know… I like it that way.

If I wanted a fast game, I wouldn't be playing Marathon

But of course I understand that this slow start would be a bit frustrating for most people!

KoB!

[Afforess]

I know… I like it that way.

If I wanted a fast game, I wouldn't be playing Marathon

But of course I understand that this slow start would be a bit frustrating for most people!

KoB!

I initially perceived it as a bug, although I can see your perspective. I can predict most players would perceive it in a similar way, and I don't want to have to answer the same question over and over, as to why players can't craft anything on fresh games.

[Ackos]

Question:

How many green circuits per minute are you guys producing?

[KeepOnBuilding]

After 46 hours of play time my green circuit capacity is 200/min.
The factory is totally solar, drawing 30 MW.

I'm not a speed runner… I reckon with some experience and a plan you could get to this point in 25-30 hours.

Have fun, and
KeepOnBuilding!

[Ackos]

Not good, getting 105/min at 35 hrs. Still trying to work out a good design

[Afforess]

Question:

How many green circuits per minute are you guys producing?

In my current map, ~200:

circuits

[Gus_Smedstad]

Not happy with the unneccessary nerf of solid fuel in 0.5.4. However, since I don't see myself playing a Marathon mod game again anytime soon, I guess this is just grousing from the sidelines.

[Afforess]

Not happy with the unneccessary nerf of solid fuel in 0.5.4. However, since I don't see myself playing a Marathon mod game again anytime soon, I guess this is just grousing from the sidelines.

You are talking about this?

- BALANCE: Solid fuel provides 10MJ of power, down from 25MJ previously

Or something else? I believe the rest of the discussed changes to solid fuel's recipe were tabled, and only the energy change was carried through.

Edit: I re-read the prev discussion on solid fuel. I believe the discussion was focused on the solid fuel's MJ energy ouput, and I see no consensus from the discussion. I think, given the lack of consensus and general uncertainty, I will revert the Marathon change and defer to the existing vanilla value.

[KeepOnBuilding]

Marathon nerfs the fuel value of wood, coal and other fuels. It should nerf solid fuel as well.
This change adjusts the fuel value in a similar ratio to other fuels, so is balanced in the Marathon world.
To revert this change would make solid fuel twice as strong, and therefore OP.

In the discussion above, the argument against the change is "it makes it harder".

Which is intended… Marathon DOES make it harder.
And slower.

That's what people expect and want when they install Marathon.

I have used solid fuel a fair bit in my 46 hour world, and it is still very powerful compared to coal, and easily useable as a replacement for coal in the early stages of the game.

And to revert a balance change based on feedback of one person who hasn't played the mod is OTT.

KoB.

[Ackos]

Finally, Rocket launched @ 94hrs 11 mins.

Copper Plates: 14,000+/min
Iron Plates: 3400+/min
Electronic Circuits: 245/min (could have used more)
Advanced Circuits: 28/min (Awful)

Peak Power Usage: 140MW
170 Steam Engines
1600+ Solar Panels
2600+ Basic Accumulators
183 Electric furnaces (I will probably re-think these next time)
157 Assembly Machines 3

Peak Pollution: 23,000 PU

Mods:
Marathon
Daynightextender
FARL
The famous no crafting challenge

[Afforess]

98 hours? That's quick, the fastest I've completed a Marathon launch is 150 hours. I keep peaceful off because I am something of a masochist, which does slow down the early game.

Impressive stats nonetheless.

[Ackos]

This build was mostly to test out some ideas. so had it set up a little cheaty . Resource richness was turned up , many of my normal mods turned off (natural evolution, RSO, Bobs Enemy's), and didnt complete all the research. My next build is going to be tougher.

[Gemzo]

Marathon nerfs the fuel value of wood, coal and other fuels. It should nerf solid fuel as well.
This change adjusts the fuel value in a similar ratio to other fuels, so is balanced in the Marathon world.
To revert this change would make solid fuel twice as strong, and therefore OP.

Isn't solid fuel already nerfed more harshly than other fuels? It costs 4 times as much oil as in vanilla... As it stands now, all other fuels get a 50% penalty, but solid fuel is basically getting hit with a 90% penalty due to the cost increase combined with having only 40% of vanilla yield. I'm not saying that solid fuel *shouldn't* get a harsher nerf than the other fuels (since oil is infinite by default), but this seems rather ridiculous. Heck, it could probably get away with being on equal footing with the other fuels since it has the disadvantage of not being available immediately. Of course, in the end it is still going to have a hard time competing with solar power, so I don't see solid fuel being too overpowered in any case.

[Woehler]

I've seen plenty of let's plays on youtube with mod packs such as bobs mods. But marathon mod is where factorio really shine. I'm only 16 hours in my marathon campaign. But this mod is already my favorite.
Other mods such as bobs mod adds complexity to the game in order to ramp up difficulty. But it also give you a LOT better tech to deal with the situations. So ultimately I feel like they become way too easy and you are quickly done.
Marathon mod doesn't add extra complexity. But it expands on what we already like in factorio and forces us to do what we like. Which is building BIG.
For crying out loud. I had a complete factory with burner drills before I even had a chance to start upgrading.
12/10 can recommend.

[Mr.YaR]

Hello! I've just started with Factorio and straight went into mods.

Marathon is what i <3. But some mods adding unit/building diversity also interest me in a lesser degree.

I've been quickly running mods description/forum disscussion and didn't realy get how compatible it is.
I'm familiar with modding in general but not with Factorio/Marathon mod, is the marathon mod compatible unit or building adding mods?
What degree of compatibility does it have with mods in general?

[Afforess]

I've seen plenty of let's plays on youtube with mod packs such as bobs mods. But marathon mod is where factorio really shine. I'm only 16 hours in my marathon campaign. But this mod is already my favorite.
Other mods such as bobs mod adds complexity to the game in order to ramp up difficulty. But it also give you a LOT better tech to deal with the situations. So ultimately I feel like they become way too easy and you are quickly done.
Marathon mod doesn't add extra complexity. But it expands on what we already like in factorio and forces us to do what we like. Which is building BIG.
For crying out loud. I had a complete factory with burner drills before I even had a chance to start upgrading.
12/10 can recommend.

In some ways, forcing the early game factory with burner equipment is even more fun than some of the later stuff. I certainly can never go back to non-Marathon too!

Hello! I've just started with Factorio and straight went into mods.

Marathon is what i <3. But some mods adding unit/building diversity also interest me in a lesser degree.

I've been quickly running mods description/forum disscussion and didn't realy get how compatible it is.
I'm familiar with modding in general but not with Factorio/Marathon mod, is the marathon mod compatible unit or building adding mods?
What degree of compatibility does it have with mods in general?

In theory, as long as mods do not replace or remove base game items, Marathon will be compatible in a strict sense (the game will work). Mods that also re-balance base game recipes may undo some of the changes Marathon does.

In practice, I've never found a mod that wasn't at least partially compatible and totally playable with Marathon.

[bgirard]

First thanks a lot Afforess for maintaining this mod! I haven't played Marathon recently with your 0.5.4 changes but I wanted to discuss my changes to the fuel values and having completed 2 marathon games so far (one with RSO).

I originally added the fuel penalty in my v1 of the mod but I now feel like it might of been a mistake. In my opinion the fuel values are too punitive, particularly since your factory needs to operate for a -much- longer time to build the equivalent recipes. It makes it such that Marathon strictly requires running mostly on solar panel fairly early on in the tech tree and forces you to grind solar panel before your coal runs out. I think the push to solar is simply too strong with Marathon but it's possible my 2 marathon games just rolled bad coal patches. Perhaps the value of coal should be increased. Or perhaps the default richness of coal could be improved in Marathon while keeping the fuel value low. This way you still have to insert coal quickly and deal with the bandwidth (logistic cost + more belts) but you don't run out as quickly. Balancing to make solar optional (or at least not require until later on) would be an improvement. Downside of this is I'm not sure if it would conflict with RSO if Marathon also changed the ore richness.

Just my 2 cents anyways, you're the maintainer now not me

[Afforess]

First thanks a lot Afforess for maintaining this mod! I haven't played Marathon recently with your 0.5.4 changes but I wanted to discuss my changes to the fuel values and having completed 2 marathon games so far (one with RSO).

I originally added the fuel penalty in my v1 of the mod but I now feel like it might of been a mistake. In my opinion the fuel values are too punitive, particularly since your factory needs to operate for a -much- longer time to build the equivalent recipes. It makes it such that Marathon strictly requires running mostly on solar panel fairly early on in the tech tree and forces you to grind solar panel before your coal runs out. I think the push to solar is simply too strong with Marathon but it's possible my 2 marathon games just rolled bad coal patches. Perhaps the value of coal should be increased. Or perhaps the default richness of coal could be improved in Marathon while keeping the fuel value low. This way you still have to insert coal quickly and deal with the bandwidth (logistic cost + more belts) but you don't run out as quickly. Balancing to make solar optional (or at least not require until later on) would be an improvement. Downside of this is I'm not sure if it would conflict with RSO if Marathon also changed the ore richness.

Just my 2 cents anyways, you're the maintainer now not me

It's interesting you bring up solar and coal, because I'm in a Marathon play through of a coal-only game. I've never researched the solar or accumulator techs. According to YARM, my base is consuming something like 2500 coal a second, and I'm starting the rocket construction, have most research complete.

So your concern is that coal is too rare / weak, and it pushes the player towards solar? I'm not sure. I am currently consuming 10 different coal patches, but at some, I don't send coal anywhere, just power 20 boilers and ship the power back to my base. So far this strategy seems okay, a coal patch can power these for 24 hours of gameplay before they need to be moved.

To be fair I'm using RSO, but the coal patches are all nearish my base, so their density seems fairly vanilla. It's oil I've had a hard time finding. I've got 100+ oil pumps and still not enough.

Anyway... Solar. I'm not convinced the problem is something Marathon can solve. We can make coal more attractive, but that doesn't mean anyone will use it. If we weaken solar, players will just place lots more of it, which also doesn't solve the balance. I'm just not sure there's anything a mod like Marathon can do to fix the fact that Solar feels like cheating. I also really, really, don't want Marathon to fiddle with ore generation. I think it's important Marathon sticks with what it's best at and players use other specialized mods like RSO for ore changes. There's a natural tendency to let every mod turn into a kitchen-sink of changes to the game, and it leads to lots of complexity and bugs for very small benefits. It's better when mods do one thing well.

Finally, I might be the maintainer, but you are the author. You definitely still have a say here, and don't be afraid to disagree.