How to upcycle?

[mmmPI]

As I wrote before, recycling 100 underground pipes = 94 iron, recycling 100 undergroud belts = 133 iron + 8 cogs. That's why they are (probably) better.

But since underground pipe recycle twice as fast, you get faster iron with underground pipe ! Just looking at the quantity of material for 100 piece recycled is not enough to conclude which one is "better" ! If you consider how much iron you get per second with the same number of recycler, in one case you have 94 and in the other 66.5 +4 cogs.

You wrote :

If you need huge quantity of iron, you can try upcycling underground belts. They are even better than pipes, because you can make them in a foundry, which has inherent 50% productivity boost.

I'm still trying to understand why you said that, ( not only pipes can also be made in a foundry so the claim is weird ) but that also made little sense because we're talking about underground pipes and then :

Underground belts require 1 foundry to make them, 1 foundry to make the cogs, 1 foundry to make the plates, 1 foundry to make the belts at least 4 different recipe.
Underground pipe require 1 foundry to make them, 1 for pipe, 1 for plate, that's just 3.

One foundry has the same power consumption as 13 recyclers, so belts use less power (per iron plate on the output), same goes for the number of machines.

That makes little sense to claim it this way to me, the first part is far from enough to support the second, because if you are going to upcycle with underground belt you need to provide 10 plate and 5 belts that need to be of the same quality, but with underground pipe you only need to provide 10 pipes and molten iron, it's much easier to get. I'd be curious to see the setup you used to conclude you need more machine for underground belts, or the math, because otherwise it look like unfounded claim.

[mrkev]

But since underground pipe recycle twice as fast, you get faster iron with underground pipe ! Just looking at the quantity of material for 100 piece recycled is not enough to conclude which one is "better" ! If you consider how much iron you get per second with the same number of recycler, in one case you have 94 and in the other 66.5 +4 cogs.

You won't. Because there is no reason to count how much you get with the same number of recyclers. You'd normaly build enough recyclers to recycle your whole production. You'll be limited by foundries and belt capacity, not by recyclers.

You wrote :

If you need huge quantity of iron, you can try upcycling underground belts. They are even better than pipes, because you can make them in a foundry, which has inherent 50% productivity boost.

I'm still trying to understand why you said that, ( not only pipes can also be made in a foundry so the claim is weird ) but that also made little sense because we're talking about underground pipes and then :

Underground belts require 1 foundry to make them, 1 foundry to make the cogs, 1 foundry to make the plates, 1 foundry to make the belts at least 4 different recipe.
Underground pipe require 1 foundry to make them, 1 for pipe, 1 for plate, that's just 3.

I meant that underground belts are better than pipes made in assembly plants.

One foundry has the same power consumption as 13 recyclers, so belts use less power (per iron plate on the output), same goes for the number of machines.

That makes little sense to claim it this way to me, the first part is far from enough to support the second, because if you are going to upcycle with underground belt you need to provide 10 plate and 5 belts that need to be of the same quality, but with underground pipe you only need to provide 10 pipes and molten iron, it's much easier to get. I'd be curious to see the setup you used to conclude you need more machine for underground belts, or the math, because otherwise it look like unfounded claim.

What do you mean, easier to get? You take the items from the normal production, run it through the recycler and put the recycled items into normal or higher quality production. You don't have to get anything from elsewhere. And the idea behind the number of machines comes from the fact, that you need 106 legendary underground pipes for 100 legendary iron plates, but just 75 legendary underground belts to get the same amount (+ few cogs).

[mmmPI]

You won't. Because there is no reason to count how much you get with the same number of recyclers. You'd normaly build enough recyclers to recycle your whole production. You'll be limited by foundries and belt capacity, not by recyclers.

What ?!! That makes no sense, in one case you need double the number of recycler and their modules to achieve the same level of production. That does matter !
What else could matter ? the iron is coming from lava to me it's only the size of the build, its cost, and how much it can produce per minutes, ups or power.
And you said nothing about the number of foundries , underground belts require more types of intermediates than underground belt.

I meant that underground belts are better than pipes made in assembly plants.

Thank you for your contribution, why you'd tell me this when i was mentionning underground pipes ?

What do you mean, easier to get? You take the items from the normal production, run it through the recycler and put the recycled items into normal or higher quality production. You don't have to get anything from elsewhere.

10 legendary pipes + 50 molten iron = 2 legendary underground pipes
very easy and cheap !


on the other hand:
10 legendary plate + 5 legendary belt = 2 legendary underground belt
this is quite bad, with 10 legendary plate you can already make more legendary underground pipes
An the belts require legendary cogs and plates ...

Sounds terrible to me, but i haven't done the math, and since you were adament i thought you did, but i'm less and less convinced now that it's a good idea to try your suggestion for upcycling iron.

And the idea behind the number of machines comes from the fact, that you need 106 legendary underground pipes for 100 legendary iron plates, but just 75 legendary underground belts to get the same amount (+ few cogs).

How is that meaning less machine ?

[mrkev]

What ?!! That makes no sense, in one case you need double the number of recycler and their modules to achieve the same level of production. That does matter !
What else could matter ? the iron is coming from lava to me it's only the size of the build, its cost, and how much it can produce per minutes, ups or power.
And you said nothing about the number of foundries , underground belts require more types of intermediates than underground belt.

More recyclers, less foundries for the same output. Sure, you need 2 more to make cogs and plates. But you need less to make the underground belts.

Thank you for your contribution, why you'd tell me this when i was mentionning underground pipes ?

I did.

10 legendary pipes + 50 molten iron = 2 legendary underground pipes
very easy and cheap !

on the other hand:
10 legendary plate + 5 legendary belt = 2 legendary underground belt
this is quite bad, with 10 legendary plate you can already make more legendary underground pipes
An the belts require legendary cogs and plates ...

Sounds terrible to me, but i haven't done the math, and since you were adament i thought you did, but i'm less and less convinced now that it's a good idea to try your suggestion for upcycling iron.

Sure, if you want legendary pipes and legendary belts. But that's not what you want, you want to get legendary iron plates. If you recycle legendary underground pipes, you get legendary pipes. You have to recycle them again, to get most of the iron. That's 25%*25% = 6.25% gain, you are loosing 93.75% of the material. With underground belts, most iron is there after the first recycle.

Share a BP and we can test this.

[mmmPI]

More recyclers, less foundries for the same output. Sure, you need 2 more to make cogs and plates. But you need less to make the underground belts.

That is the same as saying : there are stages where you need more machines with underground belts for the same quantity of iron of high quality per minute.

Thank you for your contribution, why you'd tell me this when i was mentionning underground pipes ?

I did.

Why ? what is the reason you tell me underground belts are better than pipes ? and then proceed to argue that they are better than underground pipe ? the first claim if off topic, and the second baseless it seem to me.

10 legendary pipes + 50 molten iron = 2 legendary underground pipes
very easy and cheap !

on the other hand:
10 legendary plate + 5 legendary belt = 2 legendary underground belt
this is quite bad, with 10 legendary plate you can already make more legendary underground pipes
An the belts require legendary cogs and plates ...

Sounds terrible to me, but i haven't done the math, and since you were adament i thought you did, but i'm less and less convinced now that it's a good idea to try your suggestion for upcycling iron.

Sure, if you want legendary pipes and legendary belts. But that's not what you want, you want to get legendary iron plates. If you recycle legendary underground pipes, you get legendary pipes. You have to recycle them again, to get most of the iron. That's 25%*25% = 6.25% gain, you are loosing 93.75% of the material. With underground belts, most iron is there after the first recycle.
Share a BP and we can test this.

I'm lost, you told me to go for underground belts because it's better, i asked you why you said that, and now you tell me to make a blueprint of what i had in mind originally so you can test ? I feel like you could at least recognize you have no idea, you haven't done any math before hand either, it look like you're putting up just a few isolated calculation to pretend, but that doesn't constitute an explanation, and you put on me the burden of verifying your random claim.

I'm back to where i was before your intervention, with the intuitition that underground pipes are better and the intention to test that when i find a target that require lots of quality iron ....

[Hurkyl]

I think you might be talking past each other over the final stage of upcycling -- backing out of the item you've been upcycling and getting to the item you wanted to be high quality.

(disclaimer: I've not run the math independently)

If you stick to the specific thing: your factory is actually outputting legendary underground pipes or legendary underground belts, you have to recycle back to iron plates. And one point is that this process is less lossy for the underground belts.

However, during the bulk of upcycling, the most important thing is running as many resources through the quality checks as possible, for which it sounds like underground pipes are the better option.


Let me posit a strategy that might reconcile the two points of view: you do the underground pipe loop for rare and under to do the work more efficiently. Then when you have epic items, you recycle back to iron plates and send the epic ones over to the underground belt loop -- or maybe even just transport belts -- so that you lose less value when recycling legendary products back to plates.

[mmmPI]

(disclaimer: I've not run the math independently)

That's the same for me ! Welcome to the club , let's not pretend it's the case when it's not

If you stick to the specific thing: your factory is actually outputting legendary underground pipes or legendary underground belts, you have to recycle back to iron plates. And one point is that this process is less lossy for the underground belts.

It's a point but is it a true point ? i have yet to see any proper math

However, during the bulk of upcycling, the most important thing is running as many resources through the quality checks as possible, for which it sounds like underground pipes are the better option.

I agree that it "sounds" like a better option to me, due to molten iron being used as input and immediatly aquiring the quality of the pipes.

Let me posit a strategy that might reconcile the two points of view: you do the underground pipe loop for rare and under to do the work more efficiently. Then when you have epic items, you recycle back to iron plates and send the epic ones over to the underground belt loop -- or maybe even just transport belts -- so that you lose less value when recycling legendary products back to plates.

I think it sounds prone to the fallacy of the middle ground or whatever the proper name, when one person says we avoid the iceberg by the left, and another one say we avoid the iceberg by the right, and then someone says, ok, let's take a moderate approach and do a little of both. I'm no more convinced than by the underground belt strat x).

[Hurkyl]

I agree that it "sounds" like a better option to me, due to molten iron being used as input and immediatly aquiring the quality of the pipes.

I actually think that's a negative, but am assuming it's probably somewhat moot.

The influx of molten iron does not get you anything new. Most other loops you deconstruct the end product and get resources to build 1/4 of a new one. In this loop you deconstruct the end product and you have 1/4 of the solid resources to construct a new one but now have an added fluid input to keep the loop going.

Let me posit a strategy that might reconcile the two points of view: you do the underground pipe loop for rare and under to do the work more efficiently. Then when you have epic items, you recycle back to iron plates and send the epic ones over to the underground belt loop -- or maybe even just transport belts -- so that you lose less value when recycling legendary products back to plates.

I think it sounds prone to the fallacy of the middle ground or whatever the proper name, when one person says we avoid the iceberg by the left, and another one say we avoid the iceberg by the right, and then someone says, ok, let's take a moderate approach and do a little of both. I'm no more convinced than by the underground belt strat x).

To be clear, this wasn't something I came up with as a compromise -- is a point of view I've arrived at after thinking a lot about how to get quality in the past (albeit never got around to putting into practice).

There are a couple paths to the conclusion, but IMO the most obvious and compelling is that recycling non-legendary stuff is essential for loops to function, but recycling a legendary item is throwing away 75% of your goods simply as a penalty for making the wrong thing.

So, you really, really want your recycle steps to be quality rolls.

When going off to an unrelated production chain -- e.g. underground belts when you want iron plates -- whatever you hope to gain (e.g. reducing the number of buildings needed) from this alternate recipe is tempered by the extra recycles you have to do when legendary transport belts or legendary underground belts pop out of the process.

But if you switch chains when you have epic ingredients, this lets you recycle with quality to get back towards the production target, so you get to avoid paying the penalty. And since epic items are a tiny fraction of the overall processing, whatever extra buildings you'd need will be tiny compared to the rest of the process.

I think it extremely likely that if you go with a pipe-to-ground loop, you'll find superior results if you recycle epic pipes and then do something else with epic iron plates that didn't roll legendary, rather than do another craft of pipe-to-ground. I'm not sure what would be ideal, but I'm guessing a good choice would be to make epic iron gears with 100% productivity (and 0% quality) in an assembler and then do transport belts in the Foundry.

If you have a separate stream of epic iron gears that can be merged with this process, that's probably even better.

[mmmPI]

The influx of molten iron does not get you anything new. Most other loops you deconstruct the end product and get resources to build 1/4 of a new one. In this loop you deconstruct the end product and you have 1/4 of the solid resources to construct a new one but now have an added fluid input to keep the loop going.

That's not something based on math though, and i think that's not correct, in loops where you have fluids like LDS or underground pipe, when you recycle the item, the recycling process is based on the non-fluid recipe, as such you can see the pipes as "catalyst" where only a fraction of the input is required to be of high quality, but when you recycle it's as if "all the input" was of that quality, despite using cheap moten iron (or copper), that is something to consider to me.

To be clear, this wasn't something I came up with as a compromise -- is a point of view I've arrived at after thinking a lot about how to get quality in the past (albeit never got around to putting into practice).

OK ok sorry if the comparaison was unpleasant.

I think it extremely likely that if you go with a pipe-to-ground loop, you'll find superior results if you recycle epic pipes and do something else with epic iron plates, rather than do another craft of pipe-to-ground. I'm not sure what would be ideal, but I'm guessing a good choice would be to make epic iron gears with 100% productivity (and 0% quality) in an assembler and then do transport belts in the Foundry.

Superior in what ?

[Hurkyl]

The influx of molten iron does not get you anything new. Most other loops you deconstruct the end product and get resources to build 1/4 of a new one. In this loop you deconstruct the end product and you have 1/4 of the solid resources to construct a new one but now have an added fluid input to keep the loop going.

That's not something based on math though, and i think that's not correct, in loops where you have fluids like LDS or underground pipe, when you recycle the item, the recycling process is based on the non-fluid recipe, as such you can see the pipes as "catalyst" where only a fraction of the input is required to be of high quality, but when you recycle it's as if "all the input" was of that quality, despite using cheap moten iron (or copper), that is something to consider to me.

Ah, I hadn't really internalized that you aren't recycling the recipe you're crafting in those loops beyond. (I'd only grokked the legendary plastic to copper pipeline)

I withdraw my comment.

To be clear, this wasn't something I came up with as a compromise -- is a point of view I've arrived at after thinking a lot about how to get quality in the past (albeit never got around to putting into practice).

OK ok sorry if the comparaison was unpleasant.

I think it extremely likely that if you go with a pipe-to-ground loop, you'll find superior results if you recycle epic pipes and do something else with epic iron plates, rather than do another craft of pipe-to-ground. I'm not sure what would be ideal, but I'm guessing a good choice would be to make epic iron gears with 100% productivity (and 0% quality) in an assembler and then do transport belts in the Foundry.

Superior in what ?

More legendary iron plates for given input resources and factory space. But see previous comment where I haven't thought through the ramifications of the crafting and recycling recipes being different, so I only stand by my comment if we were considering loops where that isn't the case.

[mrkev]

I agree that it "sounds" like a better option to me, due to molten iron being used as input and immediatly aquiring the quality of the pipes.

I actually think that's a negative, but am assuming it's probably somewhat moot.

The influx of molten iron does not get you anything new. Most other loops you deconstruct the end product and get resources to build 1/4 of a new one. In this loop you deconstruct the end product and you have 1/4 of the solid resources to construct a new one but now have an added fluid input to keep the loop going.

It does tho. Because when you recycle underground pipes, you'll get both pipes and some iron. You can then make more pipes from that iron (in a assembly plant), which will give you slight boost. The whole question is, whether this boost is enough to get pass the problem with the double recycling. Because if you get a 50% boost, but lose 75% more items on the output, you are still worse off. But it seems that this mmmPI guy can't argue honestly, he is constantly making stuff up or arguing pointless nonsense, without giving any info on his actual implementation.

[Khagan]

when you recycle underground pipes, you'll get both pipes and some iron. You can then make more pipes from that iron (in a assembly plant), which will give you slight boost. The whole question is, whether this boost is enough to get pass the problem with the double recycling. Because if you get a 50% boost, but lose 75% more items on the output, you are still worse off.

The 50% boost occurs every time you do a recycling loop; the (extra) 75% loss occurs only once.

Furthermore, the 50% extra is in the form of iron plates, not pipes. That means that while you are climbing up the quality ladder it gives you two bites at a quality boost from each recycling loop instead of one, making it more like a 100% boost to the production of higher quality items. It also means that once you reach legendary that 50% doesn't need a final recycling, effectively tripling the final yield of iron (you get 25% of the pipes, plus 100% of the plate).

[mmmPI]

Ah, I hadn't really internalized that you aren't recycling the recipe you're crafting in those loops beyond. (I'd only grokked the legendary plastic to copper pipeline)

I'm not sure what you mean, i'm just wondering if underground pipe would be good to upcycle iron, that's my intuition, because of that molten thing. I have no particular setup in mind, it just on paper look very good.

Then someone said "underground belt are better" but when hearing the arguments, i think they are made up, it's the same person who said "recycling stone furnace" for "almost infinite stone" was a good idea so i believe that person doesn't have a good understanding of the game, and when looking at the list of "alledged" good recipe for upcycling, that person hasn't written "underground belt".

My belief is that it's for the sake of contradiction that this was added alongside the discussion, otherwise it wouldn't be difficult for a person to explain how they came to their conclusion, but instead, that person turned to personnal attack, and asked me to proove them wrong.

I believe it's clarified now.

The 50% boost occurs every time you do a recycling loop; the (extra) 75% loss occurs only once.

Furthermore, the 50% extra is in the form of iron plates, not pipes. That means that while you are climbing up the quality ladder it gives you two bites at a quality boost from each recycling loop instead of one, making it more like a 100% boost to the production of higher quality items. It also means that once you reach legendary that 50% doesn't need a final recycling, effectively tripling the final yield of iron (you get 25% of the pipes, plus 100% of the plate).

I'm not sure i can follow, my intuition was more about the ratio "input"/"output", and the amount of quality material in each, even without "lucky roll" the recipe including molten iron are "increasing" the quality of the input from "no quality because it's fluid", to "quality". I think you don't even need quality module there, just a few pipes to use as catalyst, so it appears very strong.

But to do the whole math precisely, it's another kind of work, and it may very well depend on how every intermediate is breakdown and where each fraction of materials passes through. There are variation possibles because quality "pipes" are more interesting than quality "belt", more like "cogs". But the thought process occured for "iron" which can also be easily made from space !

[mrkev]

when you recycle underground pipes, you'll get both pipes and some iron. You can then make more pipes from that iron (in a assembly plant), which will give you slight boost. The whole question is, whether this boost is enough to get pass the problem with the double recycling. Because if you get a 50% boost, but lose 75% more items on the output, you are still worse off.

The 50% boost occurs every time you do a recycling loop; the (extra) 75% loss occurs only once.

Furthermore, the 50% extra is in the form of iron plates, not pipes. That means that while you are climbing up the quality ladder it gives you two bites at a quality boost from each recycling loop instead of one, making it more like a 100% boost to the production of higher quality items. It also means that once you reach legendary that 50% doesn't need a final recycling, effectively tripling the final yield of iron (you get 25% of the pipes, plus 100% of the plate).

I know all this, it still doesn't mean it's gonna get you past that 75% loss... As I said before, it might be slightly better or even, I would have to see the actual implementation.
Edit: 50% boost per stage for 3 stages (you are not receiving boost for normal and legendary quality) is 1,5^3 = 3.375 and 3.375/4 = 0.844, which is still less than 1. Now, I haven't done the detailed calculation, because it's rather complicated and I didn't have the time, but all the off-the-cuff calculations suggested it was pretty much even.

[mrkev]

Then someone said "underground belt are better" but when hearing the arguments, i think they are made up, it's the same person who said "recycling stone furnace" for "almost infinite stone" was a good idea so i believe that person doesn't have a good understanding of the game, and when looking at the list of "alledged" good recipe for upcycling, that person hasn't written "underground belt".

My belief is that it's for the sake of contradiction that this was added alongside the discussion, otherwise it wouldn't be difficult for a person to explain how they came to their conclusion, but instead, that person turned to personnal attack, and asked me to proove them wrong.

I believe it's clarified now.

You liar! I literally wrote: "Both underground pipes and underground belts have some advantages and some disadvantages." I never claimed that they are better then underground pipes. You are such a dishonest prick...

[mmmPI]

I see, L3 assemblies are tricky x) , i have done a recycling loop for them once, but it was on Fulgora, and i had another chain to make them from legendary material and it was much faster.

I have yet to try the underground pipe for upcycling "iron plate" possibly on Vulcanus, my intuition tells me it must be good, but L3 require copper and steel, so i will need another target.

If you need huge quantity of iron, you can try upcycling underground belts. They are even better than pipes, because you can make them in a foundry, which has inherent 50% productivity boost.

Care to explain this ? Why would you say this ?

[mrkev]

I see, L3 assemblies are tricky x) , i have done a recycling loop for them once, but it was on Fulgora, and i had another chain to make them from legendary material and it was much faster.

I have yet to try the underground pipe for upcycling "iron plate" possibly on Vulcanus, my intuition tells me it must be good, but L3 require copper and steel, so i will need another target.

If you need huge quantity of iron, you can try upcycling underground belts. They are even better than pipes, because you can make them in a foundry, which has inherent 50% productivity boost.

Care to explain this ? Why would you say this ?

Already did:

I meant that underground belts are better than pipes made in assembly plants.

[mmmPI]

I meant that underground belts are better than pipes made in assembly plants.

Which in the context of underground pipes is useless. And doesn't explain why you proceed to argue they are "probably" better than underground pipes, for a while before recognizing :

Now, I haven't done the detailed calculation, because it's rather complicated and I didn't have the time, but all the off-the-cuff calculations suggested it was pretty much even.

As you say

It isn't my fault, when you write something stupid...

It appeared to me that you quoted me and told me to :

If you need huge quantity of iron, you can try upcycling underground belts. They are even better than pipes, because you can make them in a foundry, which has inherent 50% productivity boost.

But it appeared to be a recommandation based on things that may be too complicated for you, or the time you can put into it, and that would have been nice of you to recognize it from the start. I believe it's legitimate from me to try and inquiry about the reliability on the advices i'm receiving online before following them, because everyone is free to give their opinion on the best way to upcycle but some players could be plain wrong, and i believe that may be the case here. It may be useful for player reading the thread "how to upcycle ?" to not believe 100% of things they read. Since no-one here did the math properly, there is no reason to be so categoric is it ? nor to provide baseless advices ? x)

[Hurkyl]

Ah, I hadn't really internalized that you aren't recycling the recipe you're crafting in those loops beyond. (I'd only grokked the legendary plastic to copper pipeline)

I'm not sure what you mean,

I mean it fairly literally. The ramifications of the recipe you craft being different from the recipe used for the recycler were not something I had thought through. And so, I was withdrawing my statement which had been based on the assumption they are the same. It was not meant to imply anything about what you had said, whether positive or negative.