[0.12.x][v0.12.12] Bob's Metals, Chemicals and Intermediates

[cartmen180]

I wonder if your mods Bob changed steel from 5 plates to 2 or was it tree farm?
I don't get this why it's so cheap.

cheap? I find it expensive, steel is nothing more than iron with the right percentage of carbon.

[cpy]

I wonder if your mods Bob changed steel from 5 plates to 2 or was it tree farm?
I don't get this why it's so cheap.

cheap? I find it expensive, steel is nothing more than iron with the right percentage of carbon.

Well then steel should cost iron + coal + fuel.

[bobingabout]

Base game Iron costs 1 iron ore, and 3.5 time, with the about ~200kW of power required, this means it costs 700kJ of power to produce, per plate.
Base game steel costs 5 steel plates, and 17.5 time. that's 3500kJ to make, plus 5 plates is 3500kJ, totalling 5 iron ore and 7000kJ.
My steel changes it to only 2 plates and 7 time, which is 1400kJ, totaling 2 iron ore and 2800kJ.

The main reason why this was changed is because no other metals in my mod require more than 1 ore per plate. I could have made the recipe more realistic, requiring iron and carbon to craft, but this then wouldn't have been able to be made in the furnace, and I didn't want to mess with the base game TOO much. The only thing I've changed significantly is the assembly machine 3 in the assembly machine mod. Also steel is defined as an iron alloy with upto 2.1% carbon, so to be realistic, you'd want like, 50 iron plates and 1 bar of carbon to make it, and probably get 25+ bars from it. So, yeah, 2 was enough.

[aklesey1]

Bobingabout, what you think about compatibility with Cartmen Overahul mod? Maybe someone already wrote on this subject, I have not read the previous messages and do not know what you think, so sorry if you answered before

[bobingabout]

Okay, I'm not sure where to begin here, but, I guess I should start with saying that Cartmen told me he was going to have an optional dependancy to one or more of my mods in his. I don't know if he did it or not, but he did say he was going to.

Anyway, Although I've not played with Cartmen's mods, he did give me a list of things he was going to do with his mod at one point, I'm not sure how close to that he kept things, but from what I understood, A lot of things he was going to do were alternatives to some of the things I was doing.


Anyway... is there any specific reason why it isn't compatable? As said, I've not tried it myself.

[bobingabout]

v0.7.3
* Fixed recipe subgroup for Silicon powder and Fuel block from Hydrogen
* Fixed migration multiplayer compatability

[Degraine]

Cartmen's mod drastically changes the recipes of a lot of things. He expanded the early game content, which slows down advancement considerably, added component casting with liquid metal recipes, and various other things. It almost certainly isn't compatible with your Electronics Override mod, and there's probably some conflicts between it and other parts of your mods. I haven't tried it in a while honestly, so I can't provide any solid data on compatibility.

[bobingabout]

Actually, if he's adding a new recipe to produce the base game's electronics, it should be compatable with Electronic Overides mod V0.1.2, since I changed the way the mod works so that it redefines base game's electronic items to apear to be mine. But it wouldn't be compatable with v0.1.0 of the electronics overide mod. That's one of the reasons for the changes between v0.1.0 and v0.1.2, to increase compatability with other mods.

As for the other stuff he's changed... well, it either works, or it doesn't. IF he has dependancies of my mods in his, that means compatability is up to him, not me, since his loads after mine by design, if however he doesn't use dependancies of my mods, I could possibly fix any compatability issues, I'd just need to know what they are.

I barely have the time to play my own mod right now, most of my play time is testing things I've modded to see if they work on an existing game (of nearly 150 hours now), and checking to see if the technology tree looks as intended for unlocking new items. I wouldn't have the time to try it with a mod that changes a lot of tihngs, like Cartmen's.

[Airat9000]

idea

cobalt, and other resources such as nickel to come up with something with them. And that happens a lot of them. even if the weapon or weapons for the tanks there suppose to do.

ready to help in their development sample code and ready to try help to create.

[aklesey1]

1) Where to use ceramics?
2) Where to use lithium ion battery?
3) Where to use tungsten and bronze gears?
4) Is it possible to find a wider application of bearings?
5) Where it is possible to put a huge amount of sodium hydroxide? I cannot effective produce chlorine
6) Can add replacing recipe for highly advanced processing unit from Dytech? I think its important for electronic overide mod

[bobingabout]

1) Where to use ceramics?
Ceramics can be used to make Ceramic pipes, and ceramic bearings. The pipes can be placed directly as an alternative to iron pipes, and both are used as components in some of my buildings

2) Where to use lithium ion battery?
Currently it is only used by the new Roboport and Robot stuff in the Logistics mod, I plan to also use them in higher level accumulators in the power mod, and better modular batteries for power suits in the warfare mod.

3) Where to use tungsten and bronze gears?
I think tungsten gears are used in one of the high level furnaces. I don't think I've used bronze gears for anything yet (I've been favoring Steel, Titanium and Nitinol in most cases)

4) Is it possible to find a wider application of bearings?
Almost all of the higher level buildings I've added use the bearings, especially if the lower levels used iron gear wheels in the base game. Are you sugesting a recipe re-write on some of the base game stuff to use my gears and bearings?

5) Where it is possible to put a huge amount of sodium hydroxide? I cannot effective produce chlorine
So far it is only used to make Aluminium, which is a material I don't make much use of... I would sugest you make more modules, the module case uses Aluminium.

6) Can add replacing recipe for highly advanced processing unit from Dytech? I think its important for electronic overide mod[/quote]
That was mentioned in the overide mod forum topic, it is on my todo list.

I havn't had much time to do any moding recently.

[Degraine]

Could you put the information about the pipes into the OP, Bob? It would be helpful to have those details somewhere convenient to refer to.

EDIT: Also, the liquid fuel canister has about a fifth of the fuel value it should have. 25 liquid fuel is 625MJ energy, but the canister is only worth 125.

[bobingabout]

Update v0.7.4
* Change Electric chemical furnace to not be able to mix metals, and reduced speed to 2, same as the normal and mixing counterparts.
* Added Stone (Concrete) Pipe as a T1 large pipe.
* Swapped stats of Steel pipe with Plastic pipe, and Titanium pipe with Ceramic pipe to make the chains make more sense
* Added 2 new intermediate catagories: Fluids, which contains all the fluid (and gas) recipes, and Resources, which contains all resource/material type intermediates, such as metal plates
* Changed the "Gas" type fluids to have the same flow as water, I wasn't happy with the ripple effect caused by what the devs describe as "the simulation becomes unstable".


Q: Should I add Solder Alloy plates? These would replace the Solder reels recipes to be a single Resin and Solder plates recipe made in the assembly machine, but add 2 recipes for the solder plate, one made from Tin, Silver and Copper, the other made from Tin and Lead in the Mixing Furnace.


Also, the dangers of using Edit, I didn't see your note about the fuel canister. I'll have to look into it for the next update.

[Degraine]

Oops, I'll avoid that next time.

The gases bouncing all the time was something I was going to complain about. Solder plates...I could see it.

[Gaest]

I would like to make a suggestion about "solid fuel from hydrogen" reaction. Currently it violates the conservation of energy principle and allows to produce free energy just by operating "steam engine - electrolizer - chemical plant" system. In my opinion, this reaction can be the way to utilize excess hydrogen, but not to make the "free energy", on the contrary it must lead to the net drain of energy. In my tests, the (steam turbine - electrolizer - chemical plant) system, all MK1, with all bobmods installed, is self-sufficient with the energy value of solid fuel > around 1.5 MJ (precisely, 2 MJ == perpetuum mobile, 1 MJ == after initial turbine start with 1 coal in the boiler, system shuts down after 7 hydrogen-producing fuel cycles). And vanilla value of solid fuel is 25 MJ. There are several ways to solve a problem. I, personally, like the way when "solid fuel from hydrogen" are different kind of solid fuel, different item, and contains only 1 MJ of energy per cube. Alternate way is to increase "solid fuel from hydrogen" energy cost, or make 25MJ-cube require far more hydrogen in the reaction, so the electrolyzer part of the chain will have to consume much more energy (and produce more so much needed oxygen as by-product, per 1 fuel cube; that is the reason I like the 1MJ-cube variant more).

I have not tested, neither calculated the outputs with Mk2+ components of chain, so it may be that even after the tweak it will be possible to produce free energy from the water with the help of advanced techs. If you are interested, I can perform more tests regarding that matter.

Anyway, I want to thank you, bobingabout, for your work, it is simply great, not much more to say.

[bobingabout]

In short: Hydrogen -> Fuel block recipe is too cheap.

I must admit, I did not look at the electroylsis chain when I was writing the fuel block recipe, I instead looked at the cracking recipe for converting petroleum gas down to fuel blocks, and aimed to try and keep the energy costs around the same for both methods. I may have been a little too generous with those conversions.

Now that my attention has been drawn to the issue, I'll look into it.

[cpy]

Water -> hydrogen is EXPENSIVE process, this should be nerfed! Burning hydrogen -> lot of energy + water so in same logic and chemistry lot of energy + water -> hydrogen + oxygen

[bobingabout]

There's 2 ways to make it more expensive.

1. Change the Electrolyser entity to consume more power
2. Make the Electrolysis recipe consume more energy (energy_required tag) which makes it take longer to do the same thing.

I guess it should probably be a combination of a few different things.

EDIT: I looked at the liquid fuel recipe. The issue is that I made the item with the stats of being similar to the gas bottle items, to hold 5 fluid and stack to 100, yet when I wrote the recipe, I made it like the barrel recipe, packing 25 fluid. The intention was like the bottles, so I've changed the recipe to only require 5 fluid.

[bobingabout]

Okay, doing some calculations with hydrogen.
Cracking light oil down to hydrogen yields 1.666... Hydrogen per Light oil.
This results in 0.8333... of fuel blocks produced compared to producing them from light oil directly.
You're also losing even more energy due to converting it.
1050kJ to convert the 3 Light oil to 2 gas, then another 1050kJ to convert 2 gas to 5 hydrogen, 420kJ per hydrogen, or 840kJ per fuel block, which results in a loss of just over 5MJ per block.
if I raised it to 6 hydrogen from 2 gas, then you have far less loss, because you'd have a 1:1 ratio of blocks from light oil to blocks from hydrogen, resulting in a loss only of the conversion costs.
These calculations do not include actual costs to make the fuel block, only the cost differences from light oil to hydrogen.
and yes, you do actually end up getting more fuel blocks by converting petroleum gas to hydrogen then making fuel blocks than you would if you converted petrolium gas to fuel blocks directly...
So, by however much I increase the cost of hydrogen per fuel block, I should also increase the hydrogen from petrolium gas cracking proportionately.
anyway, moving on

with base chemical lab, it costs 210kW of power, aka 210kJ of energy per second. you produce 1 fuel block from 2 hydrogen every 3 seconds. therefore it costs 630kJ of energy to produce a single 25MJ fuel block from hydrogen.
25MJ - 0.61MJ = 24.39MJ /2 = 12.195MJ per unit of hydrogen.
An electrolyser takes 225kW of power, or 225kJ of energy per second. it takes 0.5 seconds to produce 1 hydrogen from water, or 1 second to produce 1 hydrogen from salt water. this means it costs 112.5kJ of energy to produce 1 hydrogen from water, or 225kJ to produce it from salt water.
if we presume salt water, because it is more expensive, we have a net gain of 11.97MJ of power per unit of hydrogen.

The net gain of energy per unit of hydrogen is so extreme, that if you tried to ballance it, producing hydrogen for other purposes would become obsene, which means the best course of action would be to make fuel blocks cost an obsene ammount of hydrogen. this means that either you'd need to produce an obsene ammount of hydrogen from petrolium gas to match the costs of the fuel blocks to make it worth cracking down, else cracking would become pointless.

just to be clear, to start getting a loss of energy converting hydrogen to fuel blocks, you'd need at least 110 hydrogen per fuel block using salt water electrolysis or 220 hydrogen per fuel block using water electrolysis.
and this isn't including the 0.5 efficiency of the base game boiler, or how stupid efficient my power system becomes if you're using MK4 boilers, and MK3 steam engines.

in any case, if creating fuel blocks from Hydrogen, then using them in your power plant was a net loss... why would you even make fuel blocks from hydrogen?

[crysanja]

maybe you should remove the electrolysis way to make H2.

if you look at wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_production

its not realy done this way today.