All players, bots and vehicles should update radar intel

[factoriouzr]

But then, that renders Radar's second most useful feature obsolete- making your vehicles visible on the map so you don't lose them.

For players who favor peaceful mode that is the only reason to build radars at all.


How about meeting you halfway here.

With equipment grids becoming available, create a 'mobile radar' equipment. This can be carried on vehicle grids to reveal the vehicle and its surroundings on the minimap at a reduced radius and no long range scan.

I respectfully completely disagree with making vehicles visible being the most important feature of radars. Even for peaceful mode I would say the most important feature is to find resources to mine and water.

[factoriouzr]

I see this suggestion as a "wish", some idea (see subject above, we can of course add vehicles to it).

The specific implementation (modules?) doesn't matter yet. What must be proofed here is, if that when bots can reveal map if this is really fun/useful... IMHO you can test that only with modding.

You don't think it would be beneficial to see the areas the bot traveled when it went outside the network and got destroyed? You don't think it would be useful to know the size and strength of the enemy base that blew up your robot? I think this is very useful.

[factoriouzr]

I would like to change this topic to
"Bots and vehicles will chart invisible map chunks"

I believe the original request was that players, bots, and vehicles should function like radars. This means they remove the fog of war for some area around them. This includes discovering new chunks as well as updating existing chunks.

Yes exactly.

[factoriouzr]

I would like to change this topic to
"Bots and vehicles will chart invisible map chunks"

I believe the original request was that players, bots, and vehicles should function like radars. This means they remove the fog of war for some area around them. This includes discovering new chunks as well as updating existing chunks.

Players already work that way and constantly lift the fog of war in a 2-3 chunk radius similar to a radar, but with reduced range.
https://wiki.factorio.com/Radar#Coverage


What I don't understand is the "invisible" part of the title. Ssilk probably means map chunks that have been black as of yet (never been charted), but the player/radar already makes no distinction between newly charted and recharted chunks and this idea also shouldn't.

I think the general approach is wrong here: For cars/tanks/trains this should be solved using the vehicle equipment grid and radar equipment, which would also then require power and be at least a bit more balanced in terms of resource costs. Radar equipment (and the required power equipment) would most likely be far more expensive than a car. Otherwise you could just station a bunch of cars around your perimeter and be done with map charting.

For bots this should be solved by allowing the roboport to chart its logistics/construction area instead of the bots themselves. As you generally have far less roboports this would also help with performance, even if Rseding91 mentions that charting costs next to nothing I can't imagine it being very performance efficient when you have 1000+ bots constantly charting the map. For the edge case of bots flying over area not in the logistics/construction range (eg. an L-shaped network) that's not a very good idea in the first place and I feel this change (charting with bots) would just lead to wasted developer time and loss in UPS for a feature most won't need.

I mentioned ways to optimize bot charting. Eg. bots that are in the visible actively charted radar range already shouldn't chart again. Bots outside roboport range should chart as that is the primary reason that bots should chart. Again, you would chart a much smaller section then the active radar range, you would not need to chart in full real time. Ie you could have a reasonable delay. You could group bots together and chart only once for bots close to each other. You could also not chart sections that were charted in the last 5 seconds or so etc.

[ssilk]

Completely different idea: What if we would have specialized bots, that do some charting. We could call them "explorer bots" and they will try to explore uncharted land.

[mattj256]

Completely different idea: What if we would have specialized bots, that do some charting. We could call them "explorer bots" and they will try to explore uncharted land.

Yes, I like this combination of factoriouzr's and ssilk's and daniel34's suggestions: roboports do charting (but not robots), and vehicles do charting using the equipment slots. If players already act as mini-radars can they be dropped from the title of this thread?

The "explorer bots" is an interesting idea, but I have two minor objections. (1) Will they be too late-game to be useful? The time I really need to explore the map is before I've set up oil processing. (2) I don't want to explore TOO much of the map because I have a slow computer. Especially for multiplayer, exploring TOO much of the map is not a good idea.

How are explorer robots powered? Do they have weapons? IMHO they need a much longer range than the existing robots.

[factoriouzr]

Completely different idea: What if we would have specialized bots, that do some charting. We could call them "explorer bots" and they will try to explore uncharted land.

I think that could work, but it doesn't solve the issue I posted. Trains etc should chart themselves. If in addition to this you add explorer bots, that's fine, but just by themselves they won't solve the issue.

Also explorer bots would come with a whole slew of additional challenges:

How do they charge?
how far do they go?
are they armed?
How do you limit them to prevent save file bloat?
when do you get them? It might be too late for them to be useful unless you add them early game.

Bots right now are advanced enough to build, repair and supply goods. They can carry entire trains on them (or multiple with research upgrades). They know when to charge and how to queue up for charging. They know how and where to dock. Trains are smart enough to be given complex orders. They can wait to be full, for inactivity. They know what stations to go to. They show up in the trains GUI in real time and you can even see them as if you were in them in the trains GUI, YET THEY CAN'T CHART? Come on, this makes no sense. Charting should be part of every single vehicle and robot (though for optimization reasons shortcuts can be taken as I already mentioned).

[MalcolmCooks]

Again I have to disagree. The radar's field-of-view is an invaluable tool. You don't need to have bots and trains chart chunks because you can already do it by having radar coverage. I find it difficult to believe that the case of a bot flying so far outside of your base that it encounters a nest you don't already know about happens so often that it is a problem.

[factoriouzr]

Again I have to disagree. The radar's field-of-view is an invaluable tool. You don't need to have bots and trains chart chunks because you can already do it by having radar coverage. I find it difficult to believe that the case of a bot flying so far outside of your base that it encounters a nest you don't already know about happens so often that it is a problem.

What about trains?

Do you want to place a radar and deal with the nightmare of supplying it with power and adding defences for it all the way along your train tracks? I certainly don't. I don't find this kind of solution fun at all. It's just tedious busy work that can easily be solved by having trains always visible on the map and chart as they go to see if there are new biter threats that popped up in the area.

Think long running games where you have to go far from your main base to get resources.

[MalcolmCooks]

yes that's exactly what I do, it's far from being a "nightmare"

[BenSeidel]

Do you want to place a radar and deal with the nightmare of supplying it with power and adding defences for it all the way along your train tracks?

Doing this is far easier than not doing it. I'm not saying that it's a good or a bad thing, just that it's the way the game plays at the moment. Radars act as lightning poles for biter attacks, so one in every couple of chunks severely reduces the chance that the biters will attack a power pole or other far more obnoxious target. But this is a discussion in another thread.

I vote for the radar in the equipment grid!!! Sounds like a nice way to introduce the equipment grid into the game.
If anyone writes a mod for this I will be first in line to download it.

[factoriouzr]

Do you want to place a radar and deal with the nightmare of supplying it with power and adding defences for it all the way along your train tracks?

Doing this is far easier than not doing it. I'm not saying that it's a good or a bad thing, just that it's the way the game plays at the moment. Radars act as lightning poles for biter attacks, so one in every couple of chunks severely reduces the chance that the biters will attack a power pole or other far more obnoxious target. But this is a discussion in another thread.

I vote for the radar in the equipment grid!!! Sounds like a nice way to introduce the equipment grid into the game.
If anyone writes a mod for this I will be first in line to download it.

Because of the "Radars act as lightning poles for biter attacks" and because of running power poles, this is a game aspect I don't enjoy, hence my suggestion. Everybody is different. Updating a small area around 10 trains is likely the same as one radar, so why not just let vehicles update the map/chart.

If there was such a mod, I would also download it right away.

[ssilk]

https://mods.factorio.com/mods/ssilk/RadarTracker

(I hope to make an update before christmas)

[BraveSteelDragon]

I think that outright turning every entity that moves into it's own radar is a tad too much.

The 'explorer'/'charting' bots would work great, but as mattj256 said...

Completely different idea: What if we would have specialized bots, that do some charting. We could call them "explorer bots" and they will try to explore uncharted land.

Yes, I like this combination of factoriouzr's and ssilk's and daniel34's suggestions: roboports do charting (but not robots), and vehicles do charting using the equipment slots. If players already act as mini-radars can they be dropped from the title of this thread?

The "explorer bots" is an interesting idea, but I have two minor objections. (1) Will they be too late-game to be useful? The time I really need to explore the map is before I've set up oil processing. (2) I don't want to explore TOO much of the map because I have a slow computer. Especially for multiplayer, exploring TOO much of the map is not a good idea.

How are explorer robots powered? Do they have weapons? IMHO they need a much longer range than the existing robots.

^^^^
These are my same concerns.

As for the trains....
What goes behind a train's locomotive? Wagons!
How much physical space (figuratively speaking) a locomotive actually has for bulky equipment like a radar? Little to none.
Is there a compromise that can be found? I don't know... mounting a radar on it's own wagon doesn't sound great... or does it?

Wagon-mounted radars! There, i said it...

Pros:
+ Optional for those who use a LOT of trains.
+ Would (in theory) look nice.
Cons
- 'Power-dependent' on the locomotive (No fuel = no radar).
- It adds to the convoy's length and weight (slowing down the train's acceleration and increasing braking times and distance -> consuming more fuel)

[ssilk]

@BraveSteelDragon: What is meant is, that the devs plan to integrate slots into vehicles (like for the power-suit). A radar-module could then be added into such a slot, that does charting as the player or radar currently does.

[OdinYggd]

Yes, a 'vehicle radar' module to fit in the equipment grids would be nice.

This would enable radar functionality around vehicles, giving them a range similar to the player but without the deep scans that the main radar dishes have. And since it would use the equipment grid the player could then choose if they wanted to equip it or not.

[BraveSteelDragon]

I re-iterate my post:

The equipment grid system is fine, but IMO it would be a more logic fit onto cars and tanks, since they're more likely to be used for exploration than trains.
Secondly, while cars and tnaks have no real modularity as of now (which would be solved by the equipment grid), trains are in their own way already modular.

Adding an equipment grid to a train locomotive sounds very redundant to me, because what would most likely be put inside that grid (the radar, in this very case), could very well be turned into a wagon, which would make the choice of equipping or not a lot more involved than just saying "Hmm, in which part of the grid of these 25 locomotives am i going to put these 25 radar modules?".

[BenSeidel]

Adding an equipment grid to a train locomotive sounds very redundant to me, because what would most likely be put inside that grid (the radar, in this very case), could very well be turned into a wagon, which would make the choice of equipping or not a lot more involved than just saying "Hmm, in which part of the grid of these 25 locomotives am i going to put these 25 radar modules?".

It may seem redundant at the moment, but an equipment grid may force the player to make a choice. eg Shields & offense vs intel. While some of your trains may have radars in it, it may be better if you choose to place radars on the ground and put reactors in the trains or other such factory design choices.