Legendary Yumako & Jelly Nut Seeds should grow legendary plants

[crimsonarmy]

It isn't possible, because that would mean you just need 1 legendary seed each to have an infinite supply of any legendary quality item that can be made with those. It would be akin to having an ore patch from which you will mine 100 % legendary ore.

Wow. So let me see if i understood correctly: We paid real money to get access to quality. And the issues is we can have access to quality??????????? Ahhh yes, I forgot, the dev forced us to GAMBLE in Factorio. Or else no quality.

Before start of a game, tick box: seeds don't growth same quality plant. Untick this: seeds will growth same quality plants (and some achivements won't be obtainable or whatever) = we finally can get access to quality, you know, that thing that we paid for. And insted of creating how many tens and tens of recycle factories to get quality, we plant and growth them? This sound amazing!!

By the time you have access to legendary quality, you can already get legendary stuff, you only need to put them down to the trash, to destroy them, because in Online games with gamble elements, that how you play. But in Factorio? no. No one asked to get indirectly, actually you know what, you can't get enough legendary without mods or recycle, so we are actually directly forced to gamble.

We are forced to create factories of gambling and more gambling. Everything we constructed we need to reconstruct but in a way to gamble to get higer quality.

Do you know what people would love? the fact that you only need to replace the common quality to legendary and nothing else needs to be redone in your factory.

Insted of your factory to be a waste managment facility, just because the dev force us to gamble, Gleba could become one of the most Epic addition of this PAID Dlc because all the core materials will come from there.

And guess what, you will still need to create waste managment and recycling gambling facilities since not everything can be produced on Gleba. And here comes another thing you did not take in account. Even if everything we growth at Gleba is 100% legendary, how many items will we still need to somehow get to legendary level because we can't get it on Gleba? AH yes, a small amount because of the 100% legendary plants VS EVERYTHING.

No one asked for gambling in factorio

Quality is an optional mechanic; it is not required nor meant to be a trivial upgrade. As I mentioned to you on another thread, quality isn't about gambling. It is about creating huge industry to supply the resource sink of quality. It doesn't matter if it is random or deterministic.

[mmmPI]

Do you know what people would love? the fact that you only need to replace the common quality to legendary and nothing else needs to be redone in your factory.

That's a single opinion that seem pretty uninformed or trolling x).

What would be the point of quality then ?

And I know and understand why it will never be added. Because it would skip pretty much all the point of their intended quality grind.

Yeah having legendary seed grow legendary trees makes little to no sense regarding balance, it doesn't mean legendary seed can't grow faster, that would make them still valuable

[The Phoenixian]

If legendary trees would grow faster that would make sense, but if you expect legendary fruits, then you should probably read the part of the thread you didn't read, because that's not going to happen and it's explained why x)

Yea, legendary fruits is what I would like.

And I know and understand why it will never be added. Because it would skip pretty much all the point of their intended quality grind.

But that is exactly why I would like to see legendary fruits from legendary trees because I am part of the "screw the quality grind" league. I don't care if it would "cheese" the quality system. Because the way quality currently works I personally think it is the worst addition to the game in all the years I played Factorio. If others like the way it is... good for them. But even though I would like to like it, I don't. In general I like the idea of quality items, I just don't like the way we are supposed to grind for them by fighting the odds of a probability system. So I welcome all shortcuts to the quality madness and I don't feel bad about using any of them. ^^

I feel much the same way. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: "Quality as Selective Breeding" would be incredibly on-point for the Gleba and its themes. If only it could be made to work with the rest of the game.

I do feel like it needs some challenge to it but one that's also fundamentally different from the usual quality grinder.

Taking another crack at thinking out how it might work for fun... Quality tiles don't really exist but, if they did, quality soils might be a good way to make it work. They would turn the quality agriculture into something that would need to be built out over time but also something where, unlike the recycling grind, each 9 tile increment is permanent progress. The use of landfill, and therefore stone, in the recipe would also mean that while each stage of quality makes the rest of the buildout easier, it doesn't completely trivialize it.

Unlike the process needing another enabler, (*cough* quality agricultural towers) quality soils would also split the upgrade into multiple tiers depending on what lengths the player went to. Namely: Gleba-based artificial soils that can be made at quality from local resources, and quality overgrowth soil that requires dealing with quality biter eggs. (It also turns natural soils from an early boon into a late-game pain, for better or for worse.)

Weirdly, I think the biggest issue with the idea is that Gleba is at once one of the most divergent planets from "normal" gameplay and at the same time not far afield enough. If the production lines are more unique between planets then permanent quality upgrades on Gleba would it's less impactful, sure, but also give the quality mechanics far more room to diverge. Not even as a matter of making everything completely separate, just a need for some kind of limit that doesn't really exist in Gleba's current incarnation, where the same base resources are just provided through a longer chain.

Yeah having legendary seed grow legendary trees makes little to no sense regarding balance, it doesn't mean legendary seed can't grow faster, that would make them still valuable

The issue is that the core appeal here isn't just "better plants" but "I put in the time and effort for this upgrade and now everything connected to that chain of resources got better, permanently." (Assuming I'm reading you right and we're of the same mind here, MeduSalem.)

Even if you strip out copper and/or iron bacteria, you still have "I upgraded my tree farms, and now everything from plastics, to bioflux, to carbon fiber, to agricultural science all benefit from this time and effort. Permanently" It's basically taking a radically different approach to quality as a mechanics.

Even in the broad picture... At times, Gleba feels like a places that has so much potential, but which also suffered from spending so much time in revisions that there wasn't enough focus to for the game to really explore the full extent of what it could be.

[mmmPI]

Yeah having legendary seed grow legendary trees makes little to no sense regarding balance, it doesn't mean legendary seed can't grow faster, that would make them still valuable

The issue is that the core appeal here isn't just "better plants" but "I put in the time and effort for this upgrade and now everything connected to that chain of resources got better, permanently." (Assuming I'm reading you right and we're of the same mind here, MeduSalem.)

Even if you strip out copper and/or iron bacteria, you still have "I upgraded my tree farms, and now everything from plastics, to bioflux, to carbon fiber, to agricultural science all benefit from this time and effort. Permanently" It's basically taking a radically different approach to quality as a mechanics.

Even in the broad picture... At times, Gleba feels like a places that has so much potential, but which also suffered from spending so much time in revisions that there wasn't enough focus to for the game to really explore the full extent of what it could be.

There is no issue here, it's pretty simple, if you make the seed grow faster you will have a benefit having quality seeds incorporated in your prooduction chain because it will allow you to grow more trees in the same area.

If you make legendary seed give legendary fruit, you just have everything legendary all the time, it's broken.

Quality soil that makes tree grow faster works, quality soil that makes quality fruit as output doesn't work.

Quality agricultural tower that makes the trees grow faster works, but if quality agricultural tower makes the trees legendary, it doesn't work, it's broken.

There are plenty of ways to understand how quality can improve things without breaking the system, i feel it's easier to understand by analogy

[MeduSalem]

The issue is that the core appeal here isn't just "better plants" but "I put in the time and effort for this upgrade and now everything connected to that chain of resources got better, permanently." (Assuming I'm reading you right and we're of the same mind here, MeduSalem.)

Even if you strip out copper and/or iron bacteria, you still have "I upgraded my tree farms, and now everything from plastics, to bioflux, to carbon fiber, to agricultural science all benefit from this time and effort. Permanently" It's basically taking a radically different approach to quality as a mechanics.

Yea, you read me right there. That is basically what I also want. ^^

Taking another crack at thinking out how it might work for fun... Quality tiles don't really exist but, if they did, quality soils might be a good way to make it work. They would turn the quality agriculture into something that would need to be built out over time but also something where, unlike the recycling grind, each 9 tile increment is permanent progress. The use of landfill, and therefore stone, in the recipe would also mean that while each stage of quality makes the rest of the buildout easier, it doesn't completely trivialize it.

I would like that approach. It would be a more positive gameplay loop than is recycling items.

[crimsonarmy]

The issue is that the core appeal here isn't just "better plants" but "I put in the time and effort for this upgrade and now everything connected to that chain of resources got better, permanently." (Assuming I'm reading you right and we're of the same mind here, MeduSalem.)

Even if you strip out copper and/or iron bacteria, you still have "I upgraded my tree farms, and now everything from plastics, to bioflux, to carbon fiber, to agricultural science all benefit from this time and effort. Permanently" It's basically taking a radically different approach to quality as a mechanics.

Yea, you read me right there. That is basically what I also want. ^^

Taking another crack at thinking out how it might work for fun... Quality tiles don't really exist but, if they did, quality soils might be a good way to make it work. They would turn the quality agriculture into something that would need to be built out over time but also something where, unlike the recycling grind, each 9 tile increment is permanent progress. The use of landfill, and therefore stone, in the recipe would also mean that while each stage of quality makes the rest of the buildout easier, it doesn't completely trivialize it.

I would like that approach. It would be a more positive gameplay loop than is recycling items.

I feel like the issue at hand is there are two ways to approach quality:
1. Getting all legendary (or whatever quality you want) ingredients and building a factory that only deals with them
2. Taking in common (or a mix of quality) ingredients and using quality in each step of the process.
(Of course this is a spectrum not a binary)
This has interesting tradeoffs between simplicity (1) and efficiency (2).
Gleba practically forces the second option. The issue is if the first option were available at the fruit stage, it would either add a lot of complexity (how exactly quality soil or quality seeds work) or be overpowered (1 legendary seed -> 1.5 legendary seed -> 2.25 legendary seed ...).

[coffee-factorio]

Taking another crack at thinking out how it might work for fun... Quality tiles don't really exist but, if they did, quality soils might be a good way to make it work. They would turn the quality agriculture into something that would need to be built out over time but also something where, unlike the recycling grind, each 9 tile increment is permanent progress. The use of landfill, and therefore stone, in the recipe would also mean that while each stage of quality makes the rest of the buildout easier, it doesn't completely trivialize it.

Unlike the process needing another enabler, (*cough* quality agricultural towers) quality soils would also split the upgrade into multiple tiers depending on what lengths the player went to. Namely: Gleba-based artificial soils that can be made at quality from local resources, and quality overgrowth soil that requires dealing with quality biter eggs. (It also turns natural soils from an early boon into a late-game pain, for better or for worse.)

Weirdly, I think the biggest issue with the idea is that Gleba is at once one of the most divergent planets from "normal" gameplay and at the same time not far afield enough. If the production lines are more unique between planets then permanent quality upgrades on Gleba would it's less impactful, sure, but also give the quality mechanics far more room to diverge. Not even as a matter of making everything completely separate, just a need for some kind of limit that doesn't really exist in Gleba's current incarnation, where the same base resources are just provided through a longer chain.

That's a really good idea. It's realistic too, if you don't balance chemical's in a soil right plants don't grow correctly or yield is reduced.

It'd be easier to balance too, since the soil table would essentially be like having another set of assembly machines loaded with quality modules. Gleba's main challenge could be enforced by changing the time of a plant to grow on that specific kind of soil; although it's not realistic a dev could at least say "Game Logic" and it could be fairly understood that is what is going one.

[mmmPI]

Quality tile giving you quality fruit is akin to legendary assembly machine producing only legendary item, or legendary mining drill producing only legendary ore. It sure removes the need for grind, it also removes the need for most things related to quality ^^

It just should make the trees grow faster, like quality assembly machines ....

[coffee-factorio]

Quality tile giving you quality fruit is akin to legendary assembly machine producing only legendary item, or legendary mining drill producing only legendary ore. It sure removes the need for grind, it also removes the need for most things related to quality ^^

It just should make the trees grow faster, like quality assembly machines ....

How fast would the trees need to grow to justify losing legendary productivity modules combined with speed beacons in a biochamber?

And what would happen to the facility footprint since haste makes waste mechanics would apply? Sorry, you've been rather concerned with UPS of late.

[coffee-factorio]

I feel like the issue at hand is there are two ways to approach quality:
1. Getting all legendary (or whatever quality you want) ingredients and building a factory that only deals with them
2. Taking in common (or a mix of quality) ingredients and using quality in each step of the process.
(Of course this is a spectrum not a binary)
This has interesting tradeoffs between simplicity (1) and efficiency (2).
Gleba practically forces the second option. The issue is if the first option were available at the fruit stage, it would either add a lot of complexity (how exactly quality soil or quality seeds work) or be overpowered (1 legendary seed -> 1.5 legendary seed -> 2.25 legendary seed ...).

Bit tired, had to take a rest before I caught up on this.

I think there's something to what you're saying. I had the idea that the tiles would work like assemblers with a set of quality modules in them, that'd be affected to what your saying and it's been the devil this thread.

I think it might be a good idea to add this to an ideas or suggestions thread, to make something like a quality exception list for the purpose of modding. That way you could have a normal item, it might be needed in the same way that production needs to exclude materials (i.e. for Kovarex processing).

There's a second devil and it's ugly. So you can upcycle seeds by putting them through Yumako and Jellynut soil. And those recipes get productivity.

At an orchard size of 47 trees, compared to the 1:80 rates of return... even neglecting the fact you could apply quality a step earlier, you should be able to get a legendary yumako tree operating constantly within 2-3 orchards.

Since it also takes quality nutrients, it's a route to bioscience potentially. So I'm pretty sure that can't be changed.

[mmmPI]

How fast would the trees need to grow to justify losing legendary productivity modules combined with speed beacons in a biochamber?

That question can be safely ignored because it makes no sense similar to last time you posted only non-sense from the start and tried to argument on it :

Sorry, the thing is. mmmPI said that simply growing fruit faster would be anything other than adding a productivity bonus to the orchards. And it simply is a productivity bonus; because having some crops grow faster means you ultimately get more fruit.

No your analysis is wrong, productivity increase the number of fruit per seed, not speed of growth.

And what would happen to the facility footprint since haste makes waste mechanics would apply? Sorry, you've been rather concerned with UPS of late.

Ah that reminded me of this topic that you flooded : 123768

The answer is simple : nothing this can also be ignored because this is another level of non-sense

[Shulmeister]

Quality tile giving you quality fruit is akin to legendary assembly machine producing only legendary item, or legendary mining drill producing only legendary ore. It sure removes the need for grind, it also removes the need for most things related to quality ^^

It just should make the trees grow faster, like quality assembly machines ....

How fast would the trees need to grow to justify losing legendary productivity modules combined with speed beacons in a biochamber?

I think 12, according to my monte carlo simulation !

[coffee-factorio]

How fast would the trees need to grow to justify losing legendary productivity modules combined with speed beacons in a biochamber?

That question can be safely ignored because it makes no sense similar to last time you posted only non-sense from the start and tried to argument on it :

Sorry, the thing is. mmmPI said that simply growing fruit faster would be anything other than adding a productivity bonus to the orchards. And it simply is a productivity bonus; because having some crops grow faster means you ultimately get more fruit.

No your analysis is wrong, productivity increase the number of fruit per seed, not speed of growth.

And what would happen to the facility footprint since haste makes waste mechanics would apply? Sorry, you've been rather concerned with UPS of late.

Ah that reminded me of this topic that you flooded : 123768

The answer is simple : nothing this can also be ignored because this is another level of non-sense

You have this repeated habit of insulting how I speak. I think it's from reading that post.

I'm going to insist that you defend you logic though.

Because if you have a speedy orchard which "does nothing to balance". Well maybe that's because the mechanic itself does nothing and implementing it would be a misuse of time.

There's this idea that I can not respond and, that's great but even if the idea of tiles isn't so hot for quality a modder might be able to do something with it, Seablock style in another mod.

The thing is if you use your idea, every ~2-4 trees of seed I get a quality tree. After all the mechanic is 1-24.8%.

By definition your uncommon fruit finish faster. Which means I can have a tree managed in a separate location that finishes growing before the normal process.

I could filter that back to the start and do quality again. I could also throw it into a biochamber loaded with legendary productivity modules and speed beacons which would return 2.5 trees.

Since I took a quarter out of up to 4 trees to start with, I can put this through a 1/2 balancer, and feed it back into the orchards to restart them with normal quality seeds. Maybe I'll synchronize things with a timer or maybe I'll just let it run chaotically. But 1.25 seeds split 4 ways is going to refill the orchards.

But I have 1.25 seeds left over after.

A productivity module system would have 1.5 seeds left over after operations. Should I automatically get a benefit that steep for operating?
A modder might want to know since they can set up a Seablock style affair where they use a positive feedback mechanism. For the base game, that might not be the desired balance.

The issue is that someone might make all their orchards quality in relation to that. Which will require them to run a lot more biochambers at every level due to how they interact with speed modules. If that's not properly accounted for someone would have the opportunity to grief a player.

[mmmPI]

I'm going to insist that you defend you logic though.

When i try in private you report my message or ignore them, and you spill more non-sense on public thread while quoting me, i think it's fairly obvious for anyone else that legendary assembly machine do not produce legendary goods, and that speed and productvity are 2 different things.

[crimsonarmy]

I think it might be a good idea to add this to an ideas or suggestions thread, to make something like a quality exception list for the purpose of modding. That way you could have a normal item, it might be needed in the same way that production needs to exclude materials (i.e. for Kovarex processing).

This could lead to some cool mods.

[coffee-factorio]

When i try in private you report my message or ignore them, and you spill more non-sense on public thread while quoting me, i think it's fairly obvious for anyone else that legendary assembly machine do not produce legendary goods, and that speed and productvity are 2 different things.

The brief conclusion can easily be arrived at. Even if someone made a mod of this, they'd have to deal with an explosion of seeds emanating from one location.
One simply has to make a list of parts. Edit: specifically, seeds produced even if you neglect productivity.

You have repeatedly invited me to isolate myself with you.
When I tried that once you simply couldn't handle it and sent me a paragraph of random text.
It's clear that you don't care, but can't help but argue.

And while I am passionate about this topic, you as often show up on the ones I post about or have been tangentially involved with and post things which are irrelevant or passive aggressive.

I will insist in public that you defend your reasoning. Besides, if you truly had an issue the first choice an any internet forum is to go to a moderator. The risk of escalating an argument by exchanging messages with someone you disagree with should only be accepted if there's a continuous pattern of bad behavior in general that makes avoiding the person impossible.

You have a particular problem. If you write the output of seeds as a list, you don't need to simulate anything.

Phase 1: Orchard output from 4 trees
seed_normal, seed_n, seed_n, seed_n

Phase 2: 24.8% biochambers.
1.5 * (seed_n, seed_n, seed_n, seed_uncommon, seed_ )

Phase 3: Orchard (growing) , (separated)
(seed_n, seed_n, seed_n), (seed_uncommon)

Phase 4: (growing) , finished early and fed through 2.5x biochamber
(seed_n, seed_n, seed_n), (seed_n, seed_n, 1/2 seed_n)

Phase 5: Wait till harvest at normal farms is complete and feed it all back into an orchard.
(seed_n, seed_n, seed_n, seed_n, seed_n, 1/2 seed_n )

Of course, if you use biochambers it makes the issue with productivity worse. If you don't, your farm won't die actually, but you're running assemblers 3 at that point and greatly simplifying Gleba, at the expense of machine resources. After all, regardless of how fast they are the machines have to handle the 50 fruit output of the orchards in order to get seeds back.

And the seed_ share would gradually contribute too.

There's also a slight practical issue that you neglected to account for?
You have to make agricultural towers harvest faster. Otherwise any multiplier is kind of irrelevant because the fruit move as fast as the towers on Gleba. A modder might have an interesting time calculating how all the production bonuses of the buildings affect the output of seeds that grow faster. I'm not sure why you would want to hide that idea.

[The Phoenixian]

Quality tile giving you quality fruit is akin to legendary assembly machine producing only legendary item, or legendary mining drill producing only legendary ore. It sure removes the need for grind, it also removes the need for most things related to quality ^^

It just should make the trees grow faster, like quality assembly machines ....

It fits into the game as it exists now, but your words here feel like you're completely failing to engage with the desire and perspectives of those you talk to, or the ideas being discussed, while proposing your ideas as the obvious solution to said desires and discussion.

If anything, just growing faster with no other effect would be a downside for appeal, IMO. It works with how the quality mechanic exists now, sure, but it's only a downside to how Gleba should look and feel. More akin to moving quality towards making a Minecraft mini-farm than creating a sprawling factory that consumes the planet.

There's also the issue that the way you keep phrasing it seems like you're reading it as, "If you have tiles as this one prerequisite, you automatically get legendary fruit" The idea is far more that, "All of these conditions must be met in order to harvest quality fruit." There's a question of just how many things like that are necessary to make the idea of legendary fruit even work and be on theme for Gleba, or divorce quality from the standard upcycling loop, but legendary fruit and how could it possibly be made to work is part of the idea.

(It doesn't even have to be just one extra requirement. As long as I'm multiplying possibilities here, another is making it so the percentage by which the fruit or biologic products are spoiled becomes the chance that their (biologic?) outputs are a lower quality than the inputs. Making it so that quality on Gleba reinforces the spoilage mechanic, even if that one would have need some nuance in how it works to prevent a moderately spoiled legendary fish resulting in a common spidertron.)

[crimsonarmy]

Quality tile giving you quality fruit is akin to legendary assembly machine producing only legendary item, or legendary mining drill producing only legendary ore. It sure removes the need for grind, it also removes the need for most things related to quality ^^

It just should make the trees grow faster, like quality assembly machines ....

It fits into the game as it exists now, but your words here feel like you're completely failing to engage with the desire and perspectives of those you talk to, or the ideas being discussed, while proposing your ideas as the obvious solution to said desires and discussion.

If anything, just growing faster with no other effect would be a downside for appeal, IMO. It works with how the quality mechanic exists now, sure, but it's only a downside to how Gleba should look and feel. More akin to moving quality towards making a Minecraft mini-farm than creating a sprawling factory that consumes the planet.

There's also the issue that the way you keep phrasing it seems like you're reading it as, "If you have tiles as this one prerequisite, you automatically get legendary fruit" The idea is far more that, "All of these conditions must be met in order to harvest quality fruit." There's a question of just how many things like that are necessary to make the idea of legendary fruit even work and be on theme for Gleba, or divorce quality from the standard upcycling loop, but legendary fruit and how could it possibly be made to work is part of the idea.

(It doesn't even have to be just one extra requirement. As long as I'm multiplying possibilities here, another is making it so the percentage by which the fruit or biologic products are spoiled becomes the chance that their (biologic?) outputs are a lower quality than the inputs. Making it so that quality on Gleba reinforces the spoilage mechanic, even if that one would have need some nuance in how it works to prevent a moderately spoiled legendary fish resulting in a common spidertron.)

What you are proposing here seems like a great mod but too complicated for the base game.

[mmmPI]

It fits into the game as it exists now, but your words here feel like you're completely failing to engage with the desire and perspectives of those you talk to, or the ideas being discussed, while proposing your ideas as the obvious solution to said desires and discussion.

There's this idea of beating a dead horse, when you quoted me, i responded, when the usual troll that spew non-sense when it's something about quality started to do so, i also responded. The tone is different and you may notice.

Now why beating a dead horse ? because there's 5 pages on this thread and the first few have very reasonnable explanations of the shortcomings of growing legendary plants.

There's also the issue that the way you keep phrasing it seems like you're reading it as, "If you have tiles as this one prerequisite, you automatically get legendary fruit" The idea is far more that, "All of these conditions must be met in order to harvest quality fruit." There's a question of just how many things like that are necessary to make the idea of legendary fruit even work and be on theme for Gleba, or divorce quality from the standard upcycling loop, but legendary fruit and how could it possibly be made to work is part of the idea.

If the idea is different it's probably better to make a different thread, about quality tile.

If you want to hear things that are pleasant but that i do not think for real, i can say "oh it sound like a promissing idea", but this would be consdescending, if i think it's not a good idea , i'm not going to pretend. If that is disappointing, it's probably for the better not to quote me in the first place, it's kinda like summoning the stick to beat yourself there.