[MOD 0.14.2] Electric vehicles

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mknejp
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[MOD 0.14.2] Electric vehicles

Post by mknejp » Wed Aug 31, 2016 12:01 am

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Name: Electric Vehicles
Version 0.3.5
Requires Factorio 0.14
Licensed under MIT.
Get it on the mod portal

With the arrival of equipment grids for vehicles we can finally switch all our transportation to "clean" electricity instead of dirty coal. You are generating electricity in a clean and environmentally friendly way, right? Right?

Designed to be used together with Wireless Charging. Gives batteries a purpose!
Long description
Pictures
For modders
Last edited by mknejp on Sun Oct 30, 2016 5:43 am, edited 7 times in total.

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Re: [MOD 0.14.2] Electric vehicles

Post by mknejp » Thu Sep 01, 2016 6:57 pm

New version 0.2.1
electric-vehicles 0.2.1
===============================================================================
CHANGES
* Updated to electric-vehicles-lib 0.2.1
* Add homepage field to info.json
FIXES
* "Error while running the on_configuration_changed: electric-vehicles-lib/src/main.lua:102: table index is nil" when a mod was removed from an existing save

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hitzu
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Re: [MOD 0.14.2] Electric vehicles

Post by hitzu » Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:04 pm

This one and Wireless Charging are amazing mods. Although I think recipes are way too complicated. It is much much easier to just provide coal everywhere rather than bother with complex production chains and then equipping every loco with modules.

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Re: [MOD 0.14.2] Electric vehicles

Post by mknejp » Thu Sep 08, 2016 12:24 am

hitzu wrote:This one and Wireless Charging are amazing mods. Although I think recipes are way too complicated. It is much much easier to just provide coal everywhere rather than bother with complex production chains and then equipping every loco with modules.
The modules are a necessity until the game adds support for vehicles that can draw power from the equipment grid on their own. And without mass production of portable fusion reactors there isn't really a contender to the wireless charging stations to get power into the vehicle's batteries. Portable solar panels just can't power a train and batteries lose their charge as soon as you take them out so they can't be recharged somewhere else.

If you have suggestions on how to make the recipes more approachable while still maintaining some semblance of balance then go ahead.

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Re: [MOD 0.14.2] Electric vehicles

Post by hitzu » Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:10 am

mknejp wrote:If you have suggestions on how to make the recipes more approachable while still maintaining some semblance of balance then go ahead.
Ok, let me explain firstly my approach. I started new map and dive through technologies right toward electric train so I could easily build an extensive
train network without bothering too much with fuel based locomotives. At the start of researching electric trains and wireless charging I had only 3 lines feeding my base even though I could easily do without them. I just wanted some network was already there when it comes to electric locos, but not too much so I wouldn't rebuild stations again. Also I have no intrests in electric cars or tanks.

Now let's dive into recipes. As I understand charging stations for trains should contain high power induction rails otherwise charging them would take too much time (so why to have low power ones anyway? They're pretty much useless).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HP charging rails:
1 HP induction coil (which already contains LP induction coil among other things)
1 LP induction rail (which contains LP charging station which contains LP induction coil again)
1 accumulator
1 substation

This recipe is utterly complex. Why they need accumulators and substations? Just for the sake of complexity? Lower tier of induction rails doesn't need nor accus no substations and works just like the higher tier, but slower. Why would it require two coils put inside each other like a russian doll? It makes very little sense for me. I'm not saying taht it is a logistic hell requiring the logistic network to be done before, otherwise it would be a real belt spagetty mess.

In sum: 736 iron plates, 1.6k copper plates, 20 steel plates, 520 plastic, not counting 51 blue chip (so plus 1224 iron plates, 2040 copper plates, 204 plastic, 26 sulf. acid).
TOTAL:
1960 iron plates
3640 copper plates
20 steel plates
724 plastic

and little (in comparison to the quantity of other ingridients) more petroleum and iron for sulfuric acid

WHAAAAAAAAAAT?!

Is this really worth to replace cheap and simple coal refueling station? Nooooo fraking way.
But let's go further.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Electric locomotive itself is like a regular diesel train but slightly more expencive (red instead green circuits, electric engines insted of diesel ones). This makes sense. What makes no sense for me are T2 modules and 5-ingridient recipe that requires T3 assemblers.
Let's calculate:

720 Iron plates
1600 copper plates
30 steel plates
520 plastic
50 blue chips (1200 iron plates, 2000 copper plates, 200 plastic, 25 sulfuric acid)
20 electric engines (120 iron plates, 60 copper plates, 20 steel plates, 40 lubricant)

TOTAL:
1920 iron plates
3600 copper plates
50 steel plates
720 plastic

and little more oil and iron for acid and lubricant

This is not even comparable with diesel engies that requires quantities of magnitude of tens, not thousands! More than hundred times expencive loco. I wish it would be 100 times more efficient and easier to maintain, but not. It still requires special infrastructure to recharge and addictional special items in its trunk. I was heading for electric trains to reduce hand maintainance, but it increses it even more. Sigh...

Let's move on.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

High voltage transformer needs:

2 iron plates
100 copper plates
30 steel
10 plastic
5 batteries (5 iron plates, 5 copper plates, 10 sulfuric acid)
5 lubricant

So in TOTAL:
7 iron plates (wow!)
105 copper plates
30 steel
10 plastic

And more iron and oil for acid and lubricant.

This is a huuuuuuge relief in comparison with charging rails even though they make pretty much the same work. Why there is the need for an accumulator in recipe is also strange for me, 'cause this thing doesn't store any power anyway. Lubricant is also very suspicious, there is no moving parts in any kind of transformers.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Batteries

Thanks to FMM regular batteries are cheap enough and the trunk in large enough to fill it with them. Otherwise it would require an insane amount of resources again.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In conclusion. This is a great mod with no doubt! But it has to be balanced and polished. I don't understand the purpose of low power conduction rails 'cause they charge so slowly anyway, a burner inserter can load coal much faster if you count in MJoules. High power rails in the other hand and electric locomotives are so freaking expencive, that they never pay off. And why I can't just hook up a loco to power grid and feed it right from power lines? Just install a pantograph on it and go on! It would be really useful to have a choice from the start of rail expancion whether to use slightly more expencive electric locomotives and build power lines along the rails to feed them all the way, or to make fuel or battery based network with fueling/charging stations.

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Re: [MOD 0.14.2] Electric vehicles

Post by mknejp » Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:35 am

hitzu wrote:
mknejp wrote:If you have suggestions on how to make the recipes more approachable while still maintaining some semblance of balance then go ahead.
Ok, let me explain firstly my approach. I started new map and dive through technologies right toward electric train so I could easily build an extensive train network without bothering too much with fuel based locomotives. At the start of researching electric trains and wireless charging I had only 3 lines feeding my base even though I could easily do without them. I just wanted some network was already there when it comes to electric locos, but not too much so I wouldn't rebuild stations again. Also I have no intrests in electric cars or tanks.
There's supposed to be some form of progression. If it was trivial to use electric trains and they were too cheap everyone would go for electric immediately. It took some 30 years to develop the first electric locomotive. But it's also meant to be a deliberate decision, that's why electric trains do have drawbacks. If you don't mind supplying coal to trains, then by all means use the diesel engine. This is meant for people who don't want to bother with coal after some point. You also don't get electric furnaces as an alternative to stone furnaces right from the start.
hitzu wrote: Now let's dive into recipes. As I understand charging stations for trains should contain high power induction rails otherwise charging them would take too much time (so why to have low power ones anyway? They're pretty much useless).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HP charging rails:
1 HP induction coil (which already contains LP induction coil among other things)
1 LP induction rail (which contains LP charging station which contains LP induction coil again)
1 accumulator
1 substation

This recipe is utterly complex. Why they need accumulators and substations? Just for the sake of complexity? Lower tier of induction rails doesn't need nor accus no substations and works just like the higher tier, but slower. Why would it require two coils put inside each other like a russian doll? It makes very little sense for me. I'm not saying taht it is a logistic hell requiring the logistic network to be done before, otherwise it would be a real belt spagetty mess.

In sum: 736 iron plates, 1.6k copper plates, 20 steel plates, 520 plastic, not counting 51 blue chip (so plus 1224 iron plates, 2040 copper plates, 204 plastic, 26 sulf. acid).
TOTAL:
1960 iron plates
3640 copper plates
20 steel plates
724 plastic

and little (in comparison to the quantity of other ingridients) more petroleum and iron for sulfuric acid

WHAAAAAAAAAAT?!

Is this really worth to replace cheap and simple coal refueling station? Nooooo fraking way.
But let's go further.
The reason for the "russian doll" approach is that if you have low power stations/coils you probably want to upgrade them with the better ones and if the recipe didn't include the low ones you just end up with lots of garbage. One thing I don't like about the game is that you end up with stone/steel furnaces and burner drills that at some point have no purpose and cannot be upgraded to something better. No idea how others feel about this but it annoys me every time. The reasoning for the substation is that these things have to withstand a load of 20MW. No other building in the game does that, except in theory the power poles and substations. Keep in mind that these things allow you to charge a 20MJ battery in one second. The fusion generator needs 27 seconds to do the same. That is ridiculously fast and should come at a cost. I thought a lot about whether or not to include the low coil in the high coil recipe, but if I don't then you just end up with useless low coil garbage. Including an accumulator makes sure that people have them and hopefully know what they're used for otherwise each time a train recharged it could shut down your factory with drains of 20-80MW depending on how many locos your train has.
hitzu wrote: Electric locomotive itself is like a regular diesel train but slightly more expencive (red instead green circuits, electric engines insted of diesel ones). This makes sense. What makes no sense for me are T2 modules and 5-ingridient recipe that requires T3 assemblers.
Let's calculate:

720 Iron plates
1600 copper plates
30 steel plates
520 plastic
50 blue chips (1200 iron plates, 2000 copper plates, 200 plastic, 25 sulfuric acid)
20 electric engines (120 iron plates, 60 copper plates, 20 steel plates, 40 lubricant)

TOTAL:
1920 iron plates
3600 copper plates
50 steel plates
720 plastic

and little more oil and iron for acid and lubricant

This is not even comparable with diesel engies that requires quantities of magnitude of tens, not thousands! More than hundred times expencive loco. I wish it would be 100 times more efficient and easier to maintain, but not. It still requires special infrastructure to recharge and addictional special items in its trunk. I was heading for electric trains to reduce hand maintainance, but it increses it even more. Sigh...
Not sure how it increases hand maintenance considering you don't have to touch it once it's built. But I see your point that this may be a bit overkill. This recipe is still from 0.13 when vehicles didn't have equipment grids and there were no additional equipment items required. I'll rework this. But it remains a 5 ingredient recipe.
hitzu wrote: High voltage transformer needs:

2 iron plates
100 copper plates
30 steel
10 plastic
5 batteries (5 iron plates, 5 copper plates, 10 sulfuric acid)
5 lubricant

So in TOTAL:
7 iron plates (wow!)
105 copper plates
30 steel
10 plastic

And more iron and oil for acid and lubricant.

This is a huuuuuuge relief in comparison with charging rails even though they make pretty much the same work. Why there is the need for an accumulator in recipe is also strange for me, 'cause this thing doesn't store any power anyway. Lubricant is also very suspicious, there is no moving parts in any kind of transformers.
Technically it does store energy, at least in the game. But it is an implementation detail so maybe it's better to remove it. And yes, it's cheap by design. It would be a pretty big downer if you build a cheap locomotive and then it just sits in your pocket for hours until you can build the transformer. The transformer itself also only exists because of how the game works. If vehicles become capable of fueling from batteries automatically these items become obsolete. As for lubricant: transformers of sufficient intensity use oil as coolant and the game's lubricant comes closest to that. I could make it water instead but where's the fun in not having a dangerous flammable substance on your train? And if we're going down the realism route then why are electric engine units built out of diesel engines? They are completely different constructions. Sometimes things in games don't make sense. That is something we simply have to accept.
hitzu wrote: In conclusion. This is a great mod with no doubt! But it has to be balanced and polished. I don't understand the purpose of low power conduction rails 'cause they charge so slowly anyway, a burner inserter can load coal much faster if you count in MJoules. High power rails in the other hand and electric locomotives are so freaking expencive, that they never pay off. And why I can't just hook up a loco to power grid and feed it right from power lines? Just install a pantograph on it and go on!
If I could I would. Why do you think I spent tons of hours programming the whole wireless charging stuff if it was that easy? If you want electrified rails they have to be added to the base game. I don't see how else to make them work without slowing the game down. The low coils exist because 20MW is a lot in relation to everything else in the game. I do plan on making the low power coils more useful by adding a power link item that can move energy between train carriages so more coils are available for charging.
hitzu wrote: It would be really useful to have a choice from the start of rail expancion whether to use slightly more expencive electric locomotives and build power lines along the rails to feed them all the way, or to make fuel or battery based network with fueling/charging stations.
The mod description clearly says that there are pros and cons. It explicitly mentions the charging time as a negative considering a fully upgraded stack inserter can move 96 MJ per second. If electric vehicles were so easy and without drawbacks everybody would be driving them today. I want it to be a concious decision of whether to go electric or not. Making electric trains a plain upgrade without downsides completely removes any decision making for the player.

Thanks for your detailed feedback. It certainly mentions some good points that I will address.

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Re: [MOD 0.14.2] Electric vehicles

Post by hitzu » Thu Sep 08, 2016 11:02 am

There's supposed to be some form of progression. If it was trivial to use electric trains and they were too cheap everyone would go for electric immediately. It took some 30 years to develop the first electric locomotive.
I do agree that some sort of progression and trade-offs are needed. But I don't understand why the "triviality" of electric locos is considered something bad. No one (well majority of players) doesn't complain about the step from burner inserters to electric ones. Electric inserters are reliable, easy to feed and also cheap. The same goes for coal furnaces to electric furnaces. There is no huge technology leap between them. So I don't see why in the case of locomotives one should pay for very little convinience more than 2000% of the previous technology costs not including the huge setup to get all that supply chains.
The reason for the "russian doll" approach is that if you have low power stations/coils you probably want to upgrade them with the better ones and if the recipe didn't include the low ones you just end up with lots of garbage. One thing I don't like about the game is that you end up with stone/steel furnaces and burner drills that at some point have no purpose and cannot be upgraded to something better. No idea how others feel about this but it annoys me every time.
I do agree on this too. Perhaps would be better to remove one of the induction tier rails at all, leaving just one that is reliable from the start. Also if you think that switching from diesel to electric (for the sake of historic authenticity electric locomotives appeared 50 years earlier than first diesel locomotives) is considered as progress then the electric locomotive recipe should contain diesel loco too.
The reasoning for the substation is that these things have to withstand a load of 20MW. No other building in the game does that, except in theory the power poles and substations. Keep in mind that these things allow you to charge a 20MJ battery in one second.
Could it be something in the middle? We have to wait eternity to charge from T1 rail but T2 does this work in a second and thus should cost insanely too much.
Not sure how it increases hand maintenance considering you don't have to touch it once it's built.
I mean the whole infrastructure. In a good old network you can just place train wherever you want, fill with any fuel (even cheap ubiquitous wood) set the schedule and send off. With electric locos you have to also put some other things inside it. And this is already a huge drawback aside from the total costs.
Technically it does store energy, at least in the game. But it is an implementation detail so maybe it's better to remove it.
Every time something complex is added to the recipe it add a huge complexity into the factory setup. There are very little cases in vanilla when entities are included into recipes. These are science packs and solar cells for equipment grid that are supposed to be produced in very small quantities.

In my case in order to equip tens of trains (I prefer two headed trains) I have to mass produce wire rails, trains themselves, batteries, tranformers and coils. This cause a headache when I think of logistics. And my level of OCD skyrockets when I think of hundreds of wasted accumulators and substations on belts. Perhaps I should also build a logistic network first. Sigh... I just don't like bots outside of my personal roboport. But maybe it is a necessary evil.
If I could I would. Why do you think I spent tons of hours programming the whole wireless charging stuff if it was that easy? If you want electrified rails they have to be added to the base game. I don't see how else to make them work without slowing the game down.
Well. I didn't try the Modular Armor Revamp mod yet, but there is a thing that transfers electricity from the main network into the player's equipement. I don't know if it would work with locomotives.
If electric vehicles were so easy and without drawbacks everybody would be driving them today.
Why not?
I want it to be a concious decision of whether to go electric or not.
Now it absolutely doesn't worth its costs. I would understand if it would cost 5-10 times more, it would be a subject to consider what to choose. Now it is a no-brainer strict NO. 2000% CAPEX inrease (without considering the whole production setup) is too much for no OPEX decrease at all. It does very little increase speed, it needs recharging infrastructure that is not much less harder than coal-feeder infrastructure, it still consumes coal through boilers (solar power with no drawbacks is the game-wise problem and shouldn't be the base to make electric locos harder in order to compensate), it needs to carry more stuff in order to launch every new train, it needs to build a huge production setup the size of the half of the current base and it needs to increase several times the capacity of the current base or wait painfully long. There's really way too much drawbacks with very little benefits if not without them at all.

I really want to ask you not as an author and a modmaker, but a normal player: would you switch yourself from the coal based train network to the battery based train network if you need to pay 200-300 times more for it? What benefits it gives you that tip the scales toward it regardless the price?

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Re: [MOD 0.14.2] Electric vehicles

Post by mknejp » Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:48 pm

hitzu wrote:I do agree that some sort of progression and trade-offs are needed. But I don't understand why the "triviality" of electric locos is considered something bad. No one (well majority of players) doesn't complain about the step from burner inserters to electric ones. Electric inserters are reliable, easy to feed and also cheap. The same goes for coal furnaces to electric furnaces. There is no huge technology leap between them. So I don't see why in the case of locomotives one should pay for very little convinience more than 2000% of the previous technology costs not including the huge setup to get all that supply chains.
I already agreed that the locos are too expensive.
I do agree on this too. Perhaps would be better to remove one of the induction tier rails at all, leaving just one that is reliable from the start. Also if you think that switching from diesel to electric (for the sake of historic authenticity electric locomotives appeared 50 years earlier than first diesel locomotives) is considered as progress then the electric locomotive recipe should contain diesel loco too.
What do you mean by "reliable"? They are all equally reliable as long as you supply the power they need. Considering the so called "diesel locomotive" doesn't actually run on diesel but solid combustible fuels and based on the noises and effects it makes it's more likely to actually be a steam engine. So I find the progression plausible. But I think it's nonsense to build the electric locomotive out of a steam/diesel one the same way making electric engines out of combustion engines doesn't make sense. But who knows, maybe "diesel" means something different in the future world of Factorio.
Could it be something in the middle? We have to wait eternity to charge from T1 rail but T2 does this work in a second and thus should cost insanely too much.
Well maybe a medium power one is in order. But then the slower refueling time is supposed to be a concrete drawback. That's why the electric locos are more powerful, capable of pullig longer trains or reaching max speed significantly sooner, why the induction rails support circuit networks so you can make sure your train only leaves a station or signal if it has enough charge left.
I mean the whole infrastructure. In a good old network you can just place train wherever you want, fill with any fuel (even cheap ubiquitous wood) set the schedule and send off. With electric locos you have to also put some other things inside it. And this is already a huge drawback aside from the total costs.
I see that as a benefit. I have yet to meet a Factorio player who wants things to become less complex as the game progresses. The fact these trains can come to a halt in the middle of their voyage without having an easy way to refuel them is something you have to consider and plan for in advance. That's why the circuit connections exist.
In my case in order to equip tens of trains (I prefer two headed trains) I have to mass produce wire rails, trains themselves, batteries, tranformers and coils. This cause a headache when I think of logistics. And my level of OCD skyrockets when I think of hundreds of wasted accumulators and substations on belts. Perhaps I should also build a logistic network first. Sigh... I just don't like bots outside of my personal roboport. But maybe it is a necessary evil.
I don't see a more complex production and logistic chain as something bad. After all that's what this game is all about all the way to the end. And I hope you don't use the inductive rails as a replacement for regular rails. They can only charge trains that aren't moving and are meant to be placed only where your trains are expected to stop like stations or waiting signals.
Well. I didn't try the Modular Armor Revamp mod yet, but there is a thing that transfers electricity from the main network into the player's equipement. I don't know if it would work with locomotives.
I know how Modular Armor does it and it's an approach that works for players because there is usually a very limited number of players in a game. But if you have 50+ trains the "slowdown" part I mentioned becomes significant.
I want it to be a concious decision of whether to go electric or not.
Now it absolutely doesn't worth its costs. I would understand if it would cost 5-10 times more, it would be a subject to consider what to choose. Now it is a no-brainer strict NO. 2000% CAPEX inrease (without considering the whole production setup) is too much for no OPEX decrease at all. It does very little increase speed, it needs recharging infrastructure that is not much less harder than coal-feeder infrastructure, it still consumes coal through boilers (solar power with no drawbacks is the game-wise problem and shouldn't be the base to make electric locos harder in order to compensate), it needs to carry more stuff in order to launch every new train, it needs to build a huge production setup the size of the half of the current base and it needs to increase several times the capacity of the current base or wait painfully long. There's really way too much drawbacks with very little benefits if not without them at all.

I really want to ask you not as an author and a modmaker, but a normal player: would you switch yourself from the coal based train network to the battery based train network if you need to pay 200-300 times more for it? What benefits it gives you that tip the scales toward it regardless the price?
You made your point and I already agreed the locos are too expensive. You don't need to repeat it three times.

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Re: [MOD 0.14.2] Electric vehicles

Post by hitzu » Thu Sep 08, 2016 11:57 pm

I already agreed that the locos are too expensive.
Ok, thank you :)
What do you mean by "reliable"?
I mean with some lower tier parts equipped the train's max speed without wagons is around 50 km/h. What am I doing wrong?
Considering the so called "diesel locomotive" doesn't actually run on diesel but solid combustible fuels and based on the noises and effects it makes it's more likely to actually be a steam engine.
Steam engine requires water. This loco have internal combustion engines for sure. Historically ICE is more advanced technology than electric engine. And yes, making one engine from another is nonsence and the matter to consider for making changes.
But then the slower refueling time is supposed to be a concrete drawback.
What benefits it gives as a counterweight to such drawbacks?
capable of pullig longer trains or reaching max speed significantly sooner
Lower tier stuff doesn't give speed increase yet it is significally more expencive than coal setup and requires more bustle.
I see that as a benefit. I have yet to meet a Factorio player who wants things to become less complex as the game progresses.
There should be a reasonable trade off to have a meaningful choice. If we're talking about doubling the production capabilities of the post blue science factory and doubling it's size for the whole new different production chains that technology should give a lot more benefits than it currently does. A pure complexity for the sake of complexity isn't something beneficial. For example no one uses discharge defence because it is sufficiently more expencive device with very small applications, weak, inventory space taking and hard to use. Shotgun, flamethrower and battle drones are a lot more convenient and useful. Discharge defence is a cool device, but absolutely useless because it has too much drawbacks with no real benefits.
And I hope you don't use the inductive rails as a replacement for regular rails.
No, I don't. I had experimenting with this on a small test setup.
I know how Modular Armor does it and it's an approach that works for players because there is usually a very limited number of players in a game. But if you have 50+ trains the "slowdown" part I mentioned becomes significant.
Ok, I see. It's good to know.
You made your point and I already agreed the locos are too expensive. You don't need to repeat it three times.
I'm talking about the whole network, including the production chain setup, not only about locomotives. My point is that currently we have no benefits from switching from coal based networks to electric ones. Lower tier is more expencive, more complex, much slower and weaker than vanilla one. Higher tier is insanely more expencive, yet still more complex and little more fast and strong. This technology just can't compete with vanilla. I propose you to make the Tier1 tech to be really competable with vanilla locomotives and the Tier2 tech to be a significant boost in capacity (like x2-x3 boost).

This also partially can be achieved by reducing the power of vanilla locos. Their current top speed is insane for the combustion engines and overpowered.

And thank you for your patience and a detailed answer.

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Re: [MOD 0.14.2] Electric vehicles

Post by mknejp » Fri Sep 09, 2016 12:20 am

hitzu wrote: I mean with some lower tier parts equipped the train's max speed without wagons is around 50 km/h. What am I doing wrong?
The low voltage transformer is only for the car. There's a reason why the high voltage transformer is unlocked with the same tech as electric trains. The item descriptions say what they're (not) used for. The electric trains have the same top speed but can reach it much quicker.
Steam engine requires water. This loco have internal combustion engines for sure. Historically ICE is more advanced technology than electric engine. And yes, making one engine from another is nonsence and the matter to consider for making changes.
Meh, so they didn't add water to the recipe. Doesn't change the fact ICEs don't run on coal. For all we know this universe doesn't even have ICEs.
What benefits it gives as a counterweight to such drawbacks?
The trains are more powerful, maybe not enough. But making them powerful means they consume energy faster, so it's a delicate balance to find. They also don't have a reversing penalty even though this is only relevant in manual mode in a single-headed train. It would take a change in the base game to make the locomotives pull trains equally in both directions.
I'm talking about the whole network, including the production chain setup, not only about locomotives. My point is that currently we have no benefits from switching from coal based networks to electric ones. Lower tier is more expencive, more complex, much slower and weaker than vanilla one. Higher tier is insanely more expencive, yet still more complex and little more fast and strong. This technology just can't compete with vanilla. I propose you to make the Tier1 tech to be really competable with vanilla locomotives and the Tier2 tech to be a significant boost in capacity (like x2-x3 boost).

And thank you for your patience and a detailed answer.
I already mentioned that I want there to be drawbacks. Making the electric trains a pure upgrade is not something I am willing to go for. If something is a plain upgrade then it removes any form of decision making from the player which I don't like. I have other plans for faster trains.

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Re: [MOD 0.14.2] Electric vehicles

Post by hitzu » Fri Sep 09, 2016 12:35 am

mknejp wrote:They also don't have a reversing penalty even though this is only relevant in manual mode in a single-headed train. It would take a change in the base game to make the locomotives pull trains equally in both directions.
You can reverse train by hittin R button with the cursor on it. Even while in motion.
I already mentioned that I want there to be drawbacks. Making the electric trains a pure upgrade is not something I am willing to go for. If something is a plain upgrade then it removes any form of decision making from the player which I don't like. I have other plans for faster trains.
Please, listen to me. Currently it has only drawbacks without any significant benefits. You didn't name any benefit yet even after me asking you. Currently this gives no choice and only one answer: vanilla is better. Period.

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Re: [MOD 0.14.2] Electric vehicles

Post by mknejp » Fri Sep 09, 2016 4:23 am

hitzu wrote:You can reverse train by hittin R button with the cursor on it. Even while in motion.
That's all great and everything but useless in automatic mode.
Please, listen to me. Currently it has only drawbacks without any significant benefits. You didn't name any benefit yet even after me asking you. Currently this gives no choice and only one answer: vanilla is better. Period.
I *did* listen to you as I am going to change the recipes. How many more times do you want me to repeat it? Sheesh. I am really thankful for the feedback but seriously...
I did mention benefits, it's just that you don't seem to agree they are benefits which is fine since everyone plays the game differently and has other expectations.

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Re: [MOD 0.14.2] Electric vehicles

Post by hitzu » Fri Sep 09, 2016 5:36 am

mknejp wrote:That's all great and everything but useless in automatic mode.
Didn't you say that it can't go reverse in automatic mode anyway?
I *did* listen to you as I am going to change the recipes. How many more times do you want me to repeat it? Sheesh. I am really thankful for the feedback but seriously...
Ok, thank you. I thought you were talking about just locomotives. May I ask how big would be the difference?
I did mention benefits, it's just that you don't seem to agree they are benefits which is fine since everyone plays the game differently and has other expectations.
I see three:

— Easier way to feed because it's much easier to connect to electricity
— More flexible station design, allowing trains of any lenght
— More wagons

Two of them count as benefits with very limited playstyle.

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Re: [MOD 0.14.2] Electric vehicles

Post by Ratzap » Fri Sep 09, 2016 2:17 pm

mknejp wrote: I *did* listen to you as I am going to change the recipes. How many more times do you want me to repeat it? Sheesh. I am really thankful for the feedback but seriously...
I did mention benefits, it's just that you don't seem to agree they are benefits which is fine since everyone plays the game differently and has other expectations.
And this is why we can't have nice things...

j/k but seriously, it's all too easy to get the wrong impression of mod users when one loud voice is all you hear on the forums. I've got your mod in one of my games but I'm not in a hurry so I don't have your stuff unlocked yet. Once I do I'll be sure to come back and let you know what I thought.

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Re: [MOD 0.14.2] Electric vehicles

Post by mknejp » Fri Sep 09, 2016 2:53 pm

hitzu wrote:Didn't you say that it can't go reverse in automatic mode anyway?
Automatic mode pathfinding doesn't make single-headed trains go reverse. It is something I would like to be able to do because all modern locomotives can go both directions at full power.
Ok, thank you. I thought you were talking about just locomotives. May I ask how big would be the difference?
I don't know yet. I now have feedback from one person, which isn't really enough to make a decision. I can see how the locomotives are too expensive, but I am reluctant to change the stations or coils. I will have to hear from more people for that. I guess I didn't realize the expensive nature because I only added them to a game with a big factory already in place.
I see three:

— Easier way to feed because it's much easier to connect to electricity
— More flexible station design, allowing trains of any lenght
— More wagons

Two of them count as benefits with very limited playstyle.
Either more wagons, or trains that arrive at their destination quicker. With the same number of wagons the electric train reaches max speed sooner and has more braking power so they start braking later. Sure with the low power stations this is offset by the charging time but once you unlock and use the high power coils that delay basically goes away and you end up with a faster network overall.

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Re: [MOD 0.14.2] Electric vehicles

Post by hitzu » Fri Sep 09, 2016 5:13 pm

mknejp wrote:Automatic mode pathfinding doesn't make single-headed trains go reverse. It is something I would like to be able to do because all modern locomotives can go both directions at full power.
That would be nice. Although I personally avoid non-symmetrical trains anyway.
I guess I didn't realize the expensive nature because I only added them to a game with a big factory already in place.
You may try it from scratch so you could look at this from another perspective.
Either more wagons, or trains that arrive at their destination quicker. With the same number of wagons the electric train reaches max speed sooner and has more braking power so they start braking later.
I can't test this yet. Could you tell the numbers? Like it 30% more powerful or 300%?
Sure with the low power stations this is offset by the charging time but once you unlock and use the high power coils that delay basically goes away and you end up with a faster network overall.
So it is better to use vanilla trains before unlocking them?

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Re: [MOD 0.14.2] Electric vehicles

Post by SlopppyEngineering » Fri Sep 09, 2016 6:18 pm

I also think that the train is a bit heavy to build. Very neat, but expensive.

But it doesn't seem to have the drawbacks that current electric vehicles have, like charging time and range. If you want drawbacks, you can always have cheaper less powerful trains that can only support light coils and only the level 1 batteries, so charging takes much longer while having a shorter range. In that regard, it's logical to have an expensive train without those drawbacks.

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Re: [MOD 0.14.2] Electric vehicles

Post by mknejp » Fri Sep 09, 2016 6:33 pm

SlopppyEngineering wrote:I also think that the train is a bit heavy to build. Very neat, but expensive.

But it doesn't seem to have the drawbacks that current electric vehicles have, like charging time and range. If you want drawbacks, you can always have cheaper less powerful trains that can only support light coils and only the level 1 batteries, so charging takes much longer while having a shorter range. In that regard, it's logical to have an expensive train without those drawbacks.
Well the range depends on how many batteries you're willing to stuff in there, and once other mods start creating equipment for vehicles or locomotives in particular this may become a balancing point to consider, especially if you don't place charging stations at outposts. I have yet to measure how many tiles a L-CCCC-L or L-CC train can go on a single 20 MJ battery. With the high power coils the charging delay is basically gone, that is true, which is why they are supposed to be expensive and end/late game solutions. With the low power equipment a single battery with 3 coils takes about 15 seconds to charge. Are you suggesting it is too quick? The original intention is to have the charging stations at train stations, so maybe charging with low power coils should take at least as long as the average train takes to load/unload? That's at least why I made them circuit connectable so people could program schedules to only leave a station, or set a signal to green, if the waiting train has enough charge left. I feel a bit like the current implementation misses this goal.

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Re: [MOD 0.14.2] Electric vehicles

Post by mknejp » Fri Sep 09, 2016 6:42 pm

hitzu wrote:That would be nice. Although I personally avoid non-symmetrical trains anyway.
It's not just about single-headed trains. If the game understands that the electric locomotive can pull in both directions than your double-headed trains become twice as powerful.
hitzu wrote:I can't test this yet. Could you tell the numbers? Like it 30% more powerful or 300%?
The eletric locomotive has a power of 1MW, the diesel locomotive has 600kW, meaning a single vanilla portable fusion reactor isn't enough to run it. Both have the same top speed. Electric has a braking power of 15, diesel 10 but don't ask me what that number represents as I have no idea.
So it is better to use vanilla trains before unlocking them?
No idea if it's "better". If you need a train, you need a train. If you don't have the electric one yet, use diesel. As SloppyEngineering said electric vehicles today have the two big weaknesses of range and charge time. My intention was to model them both so it's up to you to decide how many batteries to use to increase the range or whether you're OK with the low coils and accept a slower refueling process. It is a decision you have to make on your own based on your own preferred play style, the map situation or what state your factory is in. I cannot make that decision for you.

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Re: [MOD 0.14.2] Electric vehicles

Post by SlopppyEngineering » Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:57 pm

mknejp wrote:Well the range depends on how many batteries you're willing to stuff in there, and once other mods start creating equipment for vehicles or locomotives in particular this may become a balancing point to consider, especially if you don't place charging stations at outposts. I have yet to measure how many tiles a L-CCCC-L or L-CC train can go on a single 20 MJ battery. With the high power coils the charging delay is basically gone, that is true, which is why they are supposed to be expensive and end/late game solutions. With the low power equipment a single battery with 3 coils takes about 15 seconds to charge. Are you suggesting it is too quick? The original intention is to have the charging stations at train stations, so maybe charging with low power coils should take at least as long as the average train takes to load/unload? That's at least why I made them circuit connectable so people could program schedules to only leave a station, or set a signal to green, if the waiting train has enough charge left. I feel a bit like the current implementation misses this goal.
I agree that the fast coils are supposed to be expensive. The fast charging should come as a price. Charging a train using the slow coils works realistically slow. That seems ok. The main thing bothering me is that you have need an expensive train, and still stuff it with expensive coils, batteries and transformer. The train itself, without those electronics, is as good as a shell with electric motors. For early game, it might be interesting to have a train with a pretty small grid, with for example a max height of two tiles, while the fast coils are three tiles high. The limited width of the grid also doesn't allow much batteries. This would give an early game electric vehicle with limited range and slow charging, where more research is needed to get a better vehicle allowing fast charge and much larger range. That seems realistic.

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