[MOD 0.12.x] Harder Energy

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Molay
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[MOD 0.12.x] Harder Energy

Post by Molay »

Type: Mod
Name: Harder Energy
Description: Aims to make energy production harder, this includes smelting. All fuels got weaker, and solar power is weaker. Energy failures possible!
License: MIT (tl;dr: do whatever you want with it)
Version: 1.0.0
Release: 2015-07-20
Tested-With-Factorio-Version: 0.12.0
Category: Gameplay
Tags: Free, Gameplay, Rebalance, Balance, Energy, Solar, Fuel, Hard, Harder
Download-Url: Attached to forum post. View below my post for download.
Website: Not applicable.
License
Long description
Version history
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HarderEnergy_1.0.0.zip
zip archive
(2.54 KiB) Downloaded 668 times
HarderEnergy_1.0.0.rar
rar archive
(2.05 KiB) Downloaded 886 times
Last edited by ssilk on Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fixed thread title, this needs to be like so.

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Re: [0.12.x] Harder Energy

Post by Ackos »

Seems to be working with Bobs mods.

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SuicidalKid
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Re: [0.12.x] Harder Energy

Post by SuicidalKid »

Loaded up a barely-powered save with this mod installed. Power completely crashed in 2 minutes flat. 10/10 would freak out again.
I have no idea what I'm doing.

Molay
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Re: [0.12.x] Harder Energy

Post by Molay »

SuicidalKid wrote:Loaded up a barely-powered save with this mod installed. Power completely crashed in 2 minutes flat. 10/10 would freak out again.
Hah, thanks for the generous rating! Looks like the mod pretty much did what is was meant to do :)

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Re: [0.12.x] Harder Energy

Post by Deathtopia »

Just wondering does anyone know if this works with Tree Farm AC, I guess I'll find out soon enough as will try anyway, but seeing as TF -AC seems so popular it might be worth mentioning in the description. :P XD

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hitzu
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Re: [0.12.x] Harder Energy

Post by hitzu »

This is a great mod, thank you for this. Now it is 100% more interesting and fun to play!
My base now is almost useless. My steam engnes run on 5% because I just cannot produce so much coal on 4 coal outposts. I even have to reverse back to burner technologies cause they work faster and more reliably than electric units. I have to deal with blue biters using machineguns because lasers consume a lot of power just in stand by mode. I even disabled all my roboports - they are luxury now! Now I'm guessing if I can return my factory to life or no. Thank you again. :)

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siggboy
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Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Harder Energy

Post by siggboy »

I'm now over 20 hours into a game with these changes (I also use RSO and significantly more expensive research).

The changes to coal's fuel value are fine and make the game more interesting (especially during the early and mid game you need to be careful or you'll suffer black outs). Finally trains can actually run out of fuel.

The nerf to solar panel is way too harsh. At 6kW, solar panels are almost useless. You might as well disable them entirely.

I've made a simple calculation: if you translate the raw material for one solar panel into coal, it will amortize after roughly one hour (with the nerfed fuel value from coal and an unchanged solar panel at 60 kW). A 6 kW solar panel (your nerfed version) takes about ten hours to amortize. That is far too long, considering how much time you have to spend now constructing solar farms that need to be 10 times larger than before.

Also I don't understand why you nerfed accumulators so hard. If anything, they should be buffed. It's not necessary to make them weak if you already take solar power out of the game.

So I've changed some values from the mod:
  • Coal to 4 MJ (from 3.5 MJ), mainly to make it easier to apply game knowledge, because the original value is exactly halved
  • Accumulator nerfs reverted and throughput buffed to 500 kW (from 300 kW). This makes (dis)charge time exactly 10 seconds at maximum performance, and it makes the accumulator more useful as a transformer/diode and generic spike buffer.
  • Solar panel output changed to 20 kW (nerfing to 33% from vanilla, still harsh considering that coal only get's nerfed by 50%)
I'll continue my map with these changes and see how it goes.

BTW it's very easy to change these values, if you want to apply your own adjustments.
Is your railroad worrying you? Doctor T-Junction recommends: Smart, dynamic train deliveries with combinator Magick

Molay
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Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Harder Energy

Post by Molay »

I'm happy you found the concept interesting; I'm happy with your changing the values, whatever you enjoy most. Feel free to post your editions here for other people to enjoy!

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Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Harder Energy

Post by BlakeMW »

siggboy wrote:
  • Solar panel output changed to 20 kW (nerfing to 33% from vanilla, still harsh considering that coal only get's nerfed by 50%)
Interestingly 20kW is exactly what I think the solar panel output should be too. 20kW is close to the energy requirements of a electric miner drill with 3x eff1 modules (18kW). Using eff1 modules it means an electric drill can be powered by 1 solar panel and a pumpjack by 2 solar panels (in both cases you need a little more if your not happy with it only running 70%). In my opinion solar panels should only be really attractive when using eff modules.
One side effect though (and of this mod in general) is it makes eff1 modules way way way more attractive. A watt saved by an eff1 module is already cheaper than a watt generated by un-nerfed solar panels for anything using more than about 150kW. For solar panels at 20kW that threshold goes down to 50kW - you should even stick eff1 modules in labs in favor of building solar panels.

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Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Harder Energy

Post by Ratzap »

BlakeMW wrote:
siggboy wrote:
  • Solar panel output changed to 20 kW (nerfing to 33% from vanilla, still harsh considering that coal only get's nerfed by 50%)
Interestingly 20kW is exactly what I think the solar panel output should be too. 20kW is close to the energy requirements of a electric miner drill with 3x eff1 modules (18kW). Using eff1 modules it means an electric drill can be powered by 1 solar panel and a pumpjack by 2 solar panels (in both cases you need a little more if your not happy with it only running 70%). In my opinion solar panels should only be really attractive when using eff modules.
One side effect though (and of this mod in general) is it makes eff1 modules way way way more attractive. A watt saved by an eff1 module is already cheaper than a watt generated by un-nerfed solar panels for anything using more than about 150kW. For solar panels at 20kW that threshold goes down to 50kW - you should even stick eff1 modules in labs in favor of building solar panels.

In the game context sure but when compared to actual solar power panels, his 6kW is closer to the mark but probably still too much. Solar in Factorio is 'tada, energy done forever' but in reality you'd have to carpet an immense area to get megawatts out.

seronis
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Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Harder Energy

Post by seronis »

Ratzap wrote:... to get megawatts out.
But megawatts per solar panel surface isnt the right way to measure an object in a game where the consumption values are not balanced for realism. The proper metric is "surface area of solar panels to surface area of objects powered". You only need to adjust the construction cost until that ratio is fair. Considering how long solar panels take to pay back their construction cost I dont see their default values as unfair. But dropping from 60 to 20 isnt overkill. Dropping to 6 _IS_ overkill imho

Ratzap
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Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Harder Energy

Post by Ratzap »

seronis wrote:
Ratzap wrote:... to get megawatts out.
But megawatts per solar panel surface isnt the right way to measure an object in a game where the consumption values are not balanced for realism. The proper metric is "surface area of solar panels to surface area of objects powered". You only need to adjust the construction cost until that ratio is fair. Considering how long solar panels take to pay back their construction cost I dont see their default values as unfair. But dropping from 60 to 20 isnt overkill. Dropping to 6 _IS_ overkill imho
That depends entirely on whether the authors intent is to introduce more realism or balance what is in the game currently. He could also leave them at 6 and make them cheaper to build, whatever he likes.

BlakeMW
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Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Harder Energy

Post by BlakeMW »

Costs are a more useful metric than space. Is it reasonable than an assembler 3 can automate production of oil refineries even though oil refineries are like 4x bigger? Or that a chest can hold as much as several wagons even though the chest is 1/40th the size? Or that you can carry several hundred freight trains in the trunk of your car? The size of things in games is always abstracted.

I tried to find out what area of solar panels would be required to power an area of stuff in the real world. The best example I could come up with is the Tesla Gigafactory, it cant be powered by rooftop solar alone although rooftop solar could provide about half the needs meaning powering a factory with an equal area of solar panels seems improbable but powering a factory with 2-3x its area in solar panels seems quite plausible.

Currently with vanilla numbers the in game ratio of "factory area" to "solar panel area" is not outside the bounds of the plausible. If the generation by solar panels is implausibly high it's because most machines are implausibly small.

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siggboy
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Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Harder Energy

Post by siggboy »

Hi it's nice to see that my reply to the mod thread sparked some discussion.

First of all, let me say that I pretty much pulled the 20 kW figure (for a solar panel) out of my butt, mainly going from the observation that it should take "a few times longer" to amortize, but certainly not 10 times as long.

I agree with Blake that space is not a very useful metric in the game, mainly because it's highly abstract already and not consistent at all. Furthermore, "space" is basically infinite, as long as you're willing to cut down a few trees and put in the time to cover the space with things. The electricity from solar is transfered instantly and anywhere, and you do not need to think about power line infrastructure in Factorio (just draw power lines willy nilly and it always works as long as there's a connection).

Fuel, on the other hand, is not infinite in the same sense, because there's always a marginal cost for "distance of resource deposit to main base". At some point it will become impractical and you'd have to move your power plant closer to the fuel source to keep it going (since your power line is never the issue).

So the problem with solar is that the actual cost (space and game time needed to install) is rather easily paid, and then it's maintenance free and truly infinite. That's boring. Making it less effective at least alleviates this problem. It's easier for the player to decide "OK at 20 kW per panel it's not worth the time and effort and I'll only use it situationally." Which, by the way is how I play my current game: I use solar only to power crucial infrastructure such as the inserters at my power plant, and the unloading facilities for the coal trains. This way I can recover from a coal resource failure as long as I can get a train with coal to my power plant -- and I still keep the interesting problem of having to manage my coal throughput via trains, or else my entire factory won't run.

Energy is so crucial for Factorio because without it you can't do anything except for hand crafting stuff. Therefore, energy needs to be made as diverse and complex as possible without drawing too much attention away from the player. Solar power in the vanilla game just makes it too easy to make the decision to "not bother with energy at all", which is the main problem with it, not the fact that it's unrealistic or implausible.

The items in the game should be balanced so that the game is fun and interesting to play; "realism" and "plausibility" should always come second.
Is your railroad worrying you? Doctor T-Junction recommends: Smart, dynamic train deliveries with combinator Magick

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siggboy
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Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Harder Energy

Post by siggboy »

BlakeMW wrote:One side effect though (and of this mod in general) is it makes eff1 modules way way way more attractive. A watt saved by an eff1 module is already cheaper than a watt generated by un-nerfed solar panels for anything using more than about 150kW. For solar panels at 20kW that threshold goes down to 50kW - you should even stick eff1 modules in labs in favor of building solar panels.
I'm using 3x Eff in the miner drills at my coal quarry (because that quarry is powered independently with a local steam power plant, which I want to keep small). I power the coal quarry independently to avoid complete black out (the inserters at the train station and main power plant are solar powered).

Making Efficiency Modules strong for this case is a good thing in my opinion. It gives the player a solution to a real problem which is not free and easy, since you have to research modules and craft them in bulk. Unfortunately it adds to the tedium of setting up the minining drills, but apparently in 0.13 the modules can be part of a blue print, so that will make it easier.

By the way, good observation of having "1 solar panel ~ 1 mining drill", I didn't even think of it that way. I can fit a solar array below the boilers of my steam engines (in the space that is left if you space out the boiler array from the coast line with underground pipes), and the solar array then delivers enough power for the inserters with some to spare for the train station that unloads the coal. So there's another area where the "space to power ratio" that you mention holds up rather nicely.
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Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Harder Energy

Post by Ratzap »

I don't see that your argument holds true to be honest. Everything in Factorio is infinite since it's procedurally generated, space is at a premium if you have aggressive biters - clearing land and holding it costs effort, materials and time. If you've switched them off you can expand at will. If you run out of fuel in your immediate area, there are trains and that endless generated space to go get more of it. Coal is just as infinite as sunlight for solar, it just requires material and time input to go get it but you can never run out completely. Solar and batteries just negate the necessity to think about energy, it's just there all the time and it refills every game day.
The name 'harder energy' implies that the current stock 'build solar + accus and forget' will be altered to something that makes people consider other sources or have to pay a higher cost for solar. Amortization doesn't make sense in a game world where all things are infinite. At least in a game with biters on you have to take and hold space, without any 'hardness' is utterly irrelevant - it's simply a case of go get more of the endless supply.

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Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Harder Energy

Post by Molay »

Mod author here.

I just want to point out how easy it is for anyone of you to change the values to something you think you might like better. Just open the data-updates.lua in notepad and adjust the values to your liking.

This is the whole of the mod:

Code: Select all

data.raw.item["raw-wood"].fuel_value = "1.5MJ";
data.raw.item["wood"].fuel_value = "0.75MJ";
data.raw.item["wooden-chest"].fuel_value = "1.5MJ";
data.raw.item["small-electric-pole"].fuel_value = "1.5MJ";
data.raw.item["coal"].fuel_value = "3.5MJ";
data.raw.item["solid-fuel"].fuel_value = "16MJ";
data.raw["solar-panel"]["solar-panel"].production = "6kW";
data.raw["accumulator"]["basic-accumulator"].energy_source =
{
  type = "electric",
  buffer_capacity = "3MJ",
  usage_priority = "terciary",
  input_flow_limit = "150kW",
  output_flow_limit = "150kW"
};
Just change any of the numbers for any item. It's very easy and can be done during a game; you can continue on your current base with adjusted values!

Remember that you can view the original values in my original post! (First post in this thread)

Have fun!

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Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Harder Energy

Post by siggboy »

Ratzap wrote:I don't see that your argument holds true to be honest. Everything in Factorio is infinite since it's procedurally generated,
I said that fuel is not infinite in the same sense that solar power is. A solar farm is like an infinite coal repository that is converted into energy automatically, with zero maintenance and zero cost after you have manufactured and installed them.

I've pointed out that, while theroretically you can expand forever and get a neverending supply of coal that way, but in practice that's not workable, and it's also way more expensive compared to the solar option (and you've already mentioned biters, which need to be cleared and the coal outposts defended).

I'm now past my second rocket launch with the playthrough on "harder energy"; overall I'm very satisfied with the experience. My factory peaks at around 60ish MW now, so I need about 1.5k coal/minute at my power plant. Also, if you don't manage your supply and run out, the blackout comes really quickly and the recovery is slower.

Factorio would probably be improved by rebalancing energy in the direction this mod takes.
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Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Harder Energy

Post by sentient-ai »

Playing with this combined with HardCrafting and I'm enjoying it. (Also set coal-dust to 1MJ and that took a bit of tinkering.)

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