Fight

Give feedback on topics proposed by the developers.
fluffy_5432
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Re: Fight

Post by fluffy_5432 » Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:59 pm

Right now laser turrets are the most effective way to fight, right? I think some element of this should be preserved while the game is developed. At the very least the player should be required to have a "safe spot" to retreat after assaulting. For example killing a nest should trigger instant an instant invasion from all nearby nests. Unless you can retreat quickly to a fortified position this "revenge strike" will kill you.

But instead of laser turrets (which only require power) the player should have to advance using artillery supported by mass production of ammunition. Late in the game the most effective way to destroy buildings should be some form of rocket artillery directed by the player in the field. This could be accomplished by making a rocket turret's range much higher than vision range and requiring manual targeting.

The player's role could be some sort of forward air control.

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Kokelvogel
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Re: Fight

Post by Kokelvogel » Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:15 pm

Personally, I would love to get an automated system for fighting (on top of the existing system).

This can be seen as a logical consequence of not doing things manually.

Let us have machines we can send out, e.g. by specifying the area of attack on the main map, and do our dirty work for us. If we send too few, they get killed and our base gets massively attacked by incensed aliens.

My reasoning behind this is that apart from having to cut down trees, having to go out and get alien science is - to me - a boring chore. I am not advocating the abolishment of hands on combat as I see that many seem to like it ... I'd just like to have an alternative.

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Re: Fight

Post by orzelek » Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:48 pm

Kokelvogel wrote:Personally, I would love to get an automated system for fighting (on top of the existing system).

This can be seen as a logical consequence of not doing things manually.

Let us have machines we can send out, e.g. by specifying the area of attack on the main map, and do our dirty work for us. If we send too few, they get killed and our base gets massively attacked by incensed aliens.

My reasoning behind this is that apart from having to cut down trees, having to go out and get alien science is - to me - a boring chore. I am not advocating the abolishment of hands on combat as I see that many seem to like it ... I'd just like to have an alternative.
I'd recommend looking into PeaceMod. It can drop all aliens and put up nice alien ore around the place to mine and produce alien artifacts from.

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Kokelvogel
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Re: Fight

Post by Kokelvogel » Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:58 am

Thank you, orzelek. That might be a good option once I start using mods :) Still, I kinda like the idea of having an automated war-machine (much better for releasing stress than kicking my 2-meter son :D).

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Re: Fight

Post by bobucles » Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:54 pm

IRL, smarter animals learn about "defense perimeters" as a natural understanding of territory. This may take a while, perhaps a few critters will get too close, teaching the rest an important lesson about keeping distance. This can make for more effective assault behavior. Critters gather outside gun perimeters, waiting for a critical mass, at which point they engage. This sort of behavior can be very useful for identifying weak points in a base defense, since places with poor coverage will bring critters closer to their targets.

Players on a long excursion might prompt a "circling" behavior where critters wander outside of range, waiting for a critical mass to strike. This sort of behavior is not effective if the player is just beelining for hives, or if they have speed boosts that let them break the circle.

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Re: Fight

Post by Linosaurus » Thu Jun 11, 2015 5:56 pm

Random idea. An artillery piece that launches destroyer capsules. You'd need a way to coordinate firing several of them at the same time, because too few will just get destroyed. They could fly around randomly around the area they were launched to, to let all the nearby spitters take a shot. And also to reach more enemies, because they might not move very far otherwise.

Enemies probably shouldn't run very far to attack them, because then the player would come from the other direction and easily kill all the spawners.

Destroyer capsules are, of course, rather expensive ammo. But it'd be a very high level way to fight.

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Re: Fight

Post by wwdragon » Wed Jul 01, 2015 4:25 pm

All the ideas in the OP are great!

\I have a couple things to add...

Please make tanks modular, so we can switch out the weapons, just like the armours!
Right now, when I get the thank, it has a nice cannon and a crappy smg; smg is useless by the time I got the tank, because of alien armours.
I'd like to switch in the flamer and that would allow me to kill the huge mobs of enemies with it quite effectively; I can't right now.

I would like to be able to add shields, solar panels, etc to my car and tank as well. ;-)

The vehicle weapons SHOULD get the damage bonus from our research; they currently do not! :-(

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Re: Fight

Post by ray4ever » Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:41 pm

I would also like an automated form of defense and attack. For example you could produce attack bots (or tanks, or attack drones or whatever) which will basicly act like friendly aliens. They would gather into one or more groups and than go out to attack the enemy. If they win they push the biters back, if they loose they at least weakend the attack that is about to come. Gameplaywise it would fit perfectly into building up an efficient factory to produce huge amounts of stuff to help you survive.

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Re: Fight

Post by SirRichie » Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:26 pm

Thumbs up for the automation of fighting. I think it is a logical consequence of the general automation direction that Factorio has and would probably expand the game with an interesting new dimension.

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Re: Fight

Post by Zackreaver » Tue Mar 08, 2016 6:47 am

The enemies are what need more attention at the moment, they are just boring and simple. A little bit more variety in them to make us have to think about what we use would be nicer.

There's nothing wrong with designing weapons intended to be used on certain enemies, or designing enemies intended to be fought with certain armaments.


One idea I think would be great is if the aliens adapted to the weapons you used against them.
Run them over alot? They put spikes on their back to hurt you more when you trample them.
Using lots of explosives or bullets? Their shell starts protecting them from those shots more than from others.
Leaving defense entirely in the hands of automated turrets? The bugs start using units meant to siege defenses (Like a mobile spawner that spawns bugs as it's weapon) or a long ranged slow moving aoe attacker.

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Re: Fight

Post by Ghoulish » Tue Mar 08, 2016 8:39 am

The problem as such with biters and fighting in its current state is that biters are just too weak. When you have 134 destroyer robots following you even 100% evolved green biters die faster than you can sneeze. The players arsenal of weapons far out matches that of biters.(edit: balance issue here tbh devs) And if you do bite off more than you can chew escaping is easy as you can just slow them down, wait for the shields to recharge and go again. The only 'oh shit' scenario I face when dealing with biters is running out of capsules or ammo, an oversight easily avoided.

If you want combat to be more engaging then biters should be given a new set of incisors, perhaps even new forms of biters (ones which could slow the player down, launch huge acid bombs from nearby biter bases, burrowing biters that would try and surround you, just more variety than the current 'I'm gonna suicide run' or 'I'll stand here and spit poison').

But it has to been mentioned that some people may not find it appealing to have more combat in Factorio, a point raised already in this thread. And I have to point out that the beauty of Factorio isn't in combat but in the automation aspect of the game. This is what pulled me in (and I bet you too!).

A hands off RTS system is something I could see working (or at least seems to fit better within the Factorio ethos of automation) However.
Kokelvogel wrote:Personally, I would love to get an automated system for fighting (on top of the existing system).
This can be seen as a logical consequence of not doing things manually.
Let us have machines we can send out, e.g. by specifying the area of attack on the main map, and do our dirty work for us. If we send too few, they get killed and our base gets massively attacked by incensed aliens.
My reasoning behind this is that apart from having to cut down trees, having to go out and get alien science is - to me - a boring chore. I am not advocating the abolishment of hands on combat as I see that many seem to like it ... I'd just like to have an alternative.
This type of idea I find most appealing, and could tie in well with other topics being proposed for development.

- New tier of heavy inserters, conveyor belts. Specifically for heavy construction.
- New Item - Containers, which have to be filled with 1 type of resource (iron or copper plate, batteries etc)
- Containers could then be moved around on the upgraded belts (containers are too big to be moved by logistic bots or the player)
- New item - robot assembly - Big factory building that produces various robots (could you design the robots? swap out modules so you could upgrade a shield array, or to give more firepower or speed, +1 shield module or +1 damage, not room for both)
- Robot assembly uses the containers to build robots (war tanks, I guess) Different types of robot need different base resource requirements.

I could see the above playing out as some sort of war of attrition, the robot factory makes robots and the biters swarm, and they grind on one another until either the factory is destroyed or your robots succeed in killing the biter base. Perhaps you could even have pre made big biter bases that can only be tickled by the players weapons, yet over a little time robots could assault it, and grab a super alien artifact, a one per base item that could be used to boost research or unlock specific items (you want your new upgraded armor suit - but you need a single super alien artifact to make it.. and the only way to get one is to take down a big big biter base with robots). You could even introduce robots by starting out by making small fast moving robots which would look for these semi-rare big bases, and then evolve the concept to include assault robots.

This sort of automated RTS I feel could fit in well with Factorio. It's adds more layers of tech to research and something to do in the end game other than just build bigger. It's also gives a reason to use conveyor belts in the end game, which is mostly negated by the use of logistic robots. You also have an additional supply chain to worry about, either feeding the robot factory goodies locally, or ensuring the factory is well supplied if away from your main base - if the factory stops producing robots it'll get over run. You could tier the robots too, additional research could improve their speed or hit points, any modifier you wish. +1 damage, +1 speed, +1 shield and so on.

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Re: Fight

Post by driver » Thu Jun 02, 2016 7:32 am

I'm a gamepad player and I don't like to use 3 different buttons for attack (C, Space, right mouse click).
There could be an attack mode to switch to combat which simply changes the right/left mouse buttons to attack with autoaim or manual aim.
There are not many good dualstick action games that I know, Hotline Miami is the only one (this kind of action would probably be too intense for factorio, but dual-stick movement is interesting). Autoaim is still necessary, if you don't want to destroy your base.
I don't like flying capsules for combat.
There could be underground levels of biter nests, which reduce the number of biters attacking the player at once. The player could kill the queens or eggs, if he dies, he's getting respawned at the entrance.

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Re: Fight

Post by Otterbear » Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:32 am

To start, let me say, I've never liked the fighting aspect of this game..or the avatar for that matter.

I agree fully with what Ghoulish said:
But it has to been mentioned that some people may not find it appealing to have more combat in Factorio, a point raised already in this thread. And I have to point out that the beauty of Factorio isn't in combat but in the automation aspect of the game. This is what pulled me in (and I bet you too!).


This is what drew me to this game, and I hope can keep me enjoying this game for a long time to come.

This silly, time-wasting, bitter attacks, tripping over pipes, and sliding all over on conveyors, does more to detract from what I believe is an awesome idea for a game. The possibilities are endless when it comes to expanding the game.

I believe that development time would be better spent on improving what is already IN-GAME(minus Bitters, and your avatar)

This is a game for thinkers, and creative minds. Please don't turn it into something less than that.

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Re: Fight

Post by Stevepunk » Tue Jun 21, 2016 2:39 am

Ghoulish wrote:The problem as such with biters and fighting in its current state is that biters are just too weak. When you have 134 destroyer robots following you even 100% evolved green biters die faster than you can sneeze. The players arsenal of weapons far out matches that of biters.(edit: balance issue here tbh devs)..

But it has to been mentioned that some people may not find it appealing to have more combat in Factorio, a point raised already in this thread. And I have to point out that the beauty of Factorio isn't in combat but in the automation aspect of the game. This is what pulled me in (and I bet you too!)..
In terms of automated defences you have the laser and that's it. Bullets are too weak endgame. And I haven't found laser batteries to be too overpowered (they frequently get destroyed even in large numbers).
I'd actually like to see more variety and more powerful defences - after researching rocketry I was disappointed to find no rocket turret.
Even heavy shells can't be used for automated defence.
Flame turrets would be nice too.

Rocket turrets would need restrictions such as not being able to fire at a target within x range of a player/structure so as not to destroy your own base.

Also, defences need a range indicator.
Other games such as Rise of Nations, Civ and even Clash of Clans all have range indicators for defences (I would go as far to say 95% of strategy games have these, so it's mind-boggling that there are none in Factorio but it is alpha I guess).
Just make it the same as the existing range indicator for grenades.
This will be more important when there are more defences of differing ranges.

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Re: Fight

Post by Shin » Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:36 pm

Yeah the combat really needs some work. Right now it's far too easy to steamroll enemy bases even with cheap weapons. It would be cool if the spawners would evolve and get tougher and also more enemy types would be nice to make combat more intersting.

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Mattyrogue
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Re: Fight

Post by Mattyrogue » Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:55 pm

You know what would be even cooler than new bugs and even more overpowered ways to defeat them?
More engaging Biter behavior...

At the moment, the bugs feel more like an encroachment on the planet than we do, at least we have the option of whether or not we become the biggest b*stard on the planet, the bugs are just hostile by default. So why not give them new ways to interact with us, the player.
  • Biters actually do what their namesake suggests... They bite, they harvest, they become the worker ants of the colony, bringing back various resources like wood, iron, coal, back to their nest, hoarding it or adapting with the player's strategy, reinforcing their nests.
    Spitters start going out to oil fields, depending on player aggression, using said oil to 'mutate' their attacks. Maybe the player is using exo's to get around, their attacks get sticky... Maybe they use a lot of armor, their attacks become corrosive.
    Worms actually burrow and start migrating around... They'll attempt to damage drills from underground or surface in areas of particularly high pollution after a certain evolution factor, both of which can be mitigated by making a stone brick or concrete perimeter.
    A new type of bug that actually seeks out power poles, the Zapper. Instead of focusing on pollution sources, they focus on power sources. Their fairly harmless if left alone but to undefended assets like power poles or solar farms, they'll attempt to 'leech' off the network, the amount they leech corresponds with their size and mutation factor. As a result, they can literally use your own power against you, doing heavy damage to shields. Maybe as a result of this, a new Modular/Power Armor module could be developed; Armor Plating. Raises innate damage resistance but lowers movement speed incrementally.
And give us ways to interact back with the Biters and actually deal with them non-lethally too; Electric Fences, Repulsor Beacons, Repellant Sprayers.

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Re: Fight

Post by Shin » Mon Jul 04, 2016 12:45 pm

Mattyrogue wrote:You know what would be even cooler than new bugs and even more overpowered ways to defeat them?
More engaging Biter behavior...

At the moment, the bugs feel more like an encroachment on the planet than we do, at least we have the option of whether or not we become the biggest b*stard on the planet, the bugs are just hostile by default. So why not give them new ways to interact with us, the player.
  • Biters actually do what their namesake suggests... They bite, they harvest, they become the worker ants of the colony, bringing back various resources like wood, iron, coal, back to their nest, hoarding it or adapting with the player's strategy, reinforcing their nests.
    Spitters start going out to oil fields, depending on player aggression, using said oil to 'mutate' their attacks. Maybe the player is using exo's to get around, their attacks get sticky... Maybe they use a lot of armor, their attacks become corrosive.
    Worms actually burrow and start migrating around... They'll attempt to damage drills from underground or surface in areas of particularly high pollution after a certain evolution factor, both of which can be mitigated by making a stone brick or concrete perimeter.
    A new type of bug that actually seeks out power poles, the Zapper. Instead of focusing on pollution sources, they focus on power sources. Their fairly harmless if left alone but to undefended assets like power poles or solar farms, they'll attempt to 'leech' off the network, the amount they leech corresponds with their size and mutation factor. As a result, they can literally use your own power against you, doing heavy damage to shields. Maybe as a result of this, a new Modular/Power Armor module could be developed; Armor Plating. Raises innate damage resistance but lowers movement speed incrementally.
And give us ways to interact back with the Biters and actually deal with them non-lethally too; Electric Fences, Repulsor Beacons, Repellant Sprayers.
Now this sounds really cool! :) You should write that in the suggestions.
I know this might be hard to program but it would make the biters way more interesting to interact with. Maybe this will be something for the future content if all the other stuff is done. I really would love to see more strategy involved.

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Re: Fight

Post by BlackKnight » Sun Jul 10, 2016 3:46 am

Like mentioned, this isnt the best place to write this but in response to the last two comments: I very much agree, the biters and spitters have always seemed kind of boring - even their names are generic. And although they dont have to be a big part of the game (there is so much to do without them being the center of the game - which is one reason why the devs I imagine have mainly focused on the mechanics of many other aspects of the games).. Though how mobs are implemented could make a world of difference in terms of creating the sense of an "evolving" world which is missing..

Organic world: IMO, this is really where its at in terms of immersion (Eventually I would really hope for evolving biomes and evolving non aggressive wildlife). It would reallllly give the game a sense of this organic, evolving NON STATIC habitat... >> Currently, its supposed to feel like its evolving with the biters/spitters "evolving" to being killed.. but that feels too simple as well as predictably linear).
I would actually like to see more organic evolution as well to them - and not all mobs evolve at the same time or rate because they all live in separate groupings.. slowly they may share traits but there would be differences in types and levels of evolution between them... and the further from the players influence, the less evolved they would become -- because they wouldn't have encountered the player before. (Which makes me think - just like having rare minerals for example (re viewtopic.php?f=9&t=10), you might also encounter a rarer combination of evolution in some areas that has a particularly unique way of surviving.. or maybe its markings are just really different?).
Oh yeah - and a better mix of mobs. If you are going to spawn a large behemoth biter, make it stronger, slower and take longer to spawn (a bit more godzilla like)... so they dont seem to be Literally popping out like popcorn everytime you kill a wave.. :x

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Re: Fight

Post by Nulluhrzehn » Mon Jul 11, 2016 11:47 am

I didn't read all of these posts, so maybe someone suggested this already, but I really think a Starcraft 2 Baneling - type of alien would be cool. It would force the player to always carry a shotgun and keep those aliens at a distance. Flamethrowers, Submachineguns and Rocket Launchers would be less effective against these little rolling acidblobs. I understand why people say, that the game is not about fighting, but rather about being creative and all that, but when I play a video game with friends, I don't always want to be creative! Maybe I was creative for many exhausting hours at my job already and I just want to smash a few aliens and build some tracks and a new mine so my friends have all the copper and iron they need. If people really think this game should have less fighting or less danger, they can always just create a map without aliens and put a trillion alien artifacts in a chest near their spawn in the editor, right? I really enjoy being under stress to a certain degree, like during a game of starcraft, where you can never be fast enough and never be on edge enough and you can never be scouting enough, you always have to be on your guard and stuff. I don't think factorio without combat would interest me. There has to be something that constantly gnaws away your resources, something that forces you to always press onward and want more resources and more advanced technologies. I like to play with very unfrequent and few resources on the map, so it's a struggle to get to the first rocket.

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Re: Fight

Post by Mattyrogue » Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:28 pm

Shin wrote: Now this sounds really cool! :) You should write that in the suggestions.
Sadly my post contains more than one suggestion and as ssilk will probably chime in, someone's been there and suggested it before.

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