Fight

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Fight

Post by kovarex » Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:11 pm

Fight is very very simple now and we are aware of that, we want to change that.

If we went the rts way (http://kovarex.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6), it could be enough.

Apart that, I had few ideas.

Industrial armors - sockets
More advanced armors would have slots (the more the better), it would be similar to socketing in Diablo 2.

Sockets types I could imagine:
a) Accumulators
b) Generators - small nuclear power plant. Do you remember the power armor in Fallout?
c) Shields would protect the player from damage as long as it has enough energy, would recharge slowly (depending on the level of the module) using the energy in the armor.
d) Rocket defense, it would fire lasers on incoming rockets, the more advanced the module is, the bigger damage is it able to deal and the more rockets per second it can destroy
e) Attacking module would fire at all enemies nearby automatically
f) Storage
g) Leg support module - running speed bonuses
h) Night vision module
and much more ...
It would be up to the player what combination suits him the most, and it would be hard choice, this is the stuff I loved while playing rpgs (should I use these boots +2 speed or magic protection?)

Different weapons/abilities with various effects
Fight shouldn't definitely be just about dealing damage, I'm not afraid to get inspired by games like starcraft and baldurs gate in this topic.

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Re: Fight

Post by Arakasi » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:09 am

Some kind of RPG elements would be cool. But my opinion is to improve only equipment of our main Hero. And try to avoid magical stuff. This game has nice concept of mining/factory/research and magic should probably does not fit there. I think that there can be found enough improvements and devices which may affect almost every aspect of the Hero's actions.

I have one proposal about researching and possible upgrading inventions related to Hero's equipment. In some very old game I met researching concept where player has two kind of research. First one has research tree as we have now and there was research all kinds of guns, motors, armors and so on. Second one was focused on upgrading already invented things. Every upgrade gives a very small profit but can be research for unlimited time.
For example if we invent some robotic legs which allows user run faster, then every upgrade gives e.g. +1% of original speed to our legs.

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Re: Fight

Post by Mysteria9 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:01 pm

I like the idea!
It allows the player to kinda "spec" in a direction, without limiting them like a player class would. I'd love to see this implemented.

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Re: Fight

Post by orbito » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:27 pm

Ability upgrades for suits would definitely make the game interesting. Might I suggest:

- Melee Damage Boost - Do twice as much melee damage.
- Melee Speed Boost - Attack twice as fast with melee.
- Melee Augmentation - Attack with bear hands, similar to a power glove (does more damage than pickaxe).
- Personal Cloaking Device - A limited cloak that confuses enemies as to the player location for 20 seconds with a 10 second cool-down.

I also really like all the suggestions in the OP. Run speed boosts, defenses, storage and extra power.

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Re: Fight

Post by Xisuma » Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:57 pm

Fighting aliens when im the guy running around isn't a platform that appeals to me much i would like to see a system that provides a challenge, like you said with starcraft style balancing, something that isnt about brute force! that could be interesting :-)

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Re: Fight

Post by Blackmoor » Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:13 pm

I like combat in the game as it is now and think these combat expansions sound great (player modifications and upgrades). It has a man vs nature type survival element that I find appealing. And it will be interesting when man makes robotic helpers to fight with him and the enemy builds up a base with more enemy types and possibly vehicles as well. The cross-genre potential is very appealing.

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Re: Fight

Post by Darthlawsuit » Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:52 am

I agree with no magic. Try to make it technological, you could use technology from different universes as well.

Steam Powered - Utilizes steam and coal (Slower but more power)
Nuclear - Requires hard to obtain uranium and can go nuclear under too much stress (Medium)
Electrical - Requires batteries or charging (Quicker but less power)

Also we need MECHS! The future without mechs is like Japan without Gundams.

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Re: Fight

Post by Garulfo » Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:28 pm

Xisuma wrote:Fighting aliens when im the guy running around isn't a platform that appeals to me much i would like to see a system that provides a challenge, like you said with starcraft style balancing, something that isnt about brute force! that could be interesting :-)
I'd say Starcraft balancing is one thing, having a PvP mode (in the same way Starcraft has) would in my opinion give Factorio the extra challenge many potential players are looking for.

Due to the many aspects of the production line like energy, raw materials, production and transport, an opponent's base can be strategically sabotaged. This results in the need for a trade-off during base building between speed, production expansion and investing in defense (turrets, making redundant power/supply lines). With human opponents, and indeed with the right balancing, different strategies would be developed and countered.

This makes for engaging Let's Plays in Youtube, helping in the promotion of this fascinating game.

Just my 0.02

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Re: Fight

Post by Dakkanor » Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:25 am

Garulfo wrote:
Xisuma wrote:Fighting aliens when im the guy running around isn't a platform that appeals to me much i would like to see a system that provides a challenge, like you said with starcraft style balancing, something that isnt about brute force! that could be interesting :-)
I'd say Starcraft balancing is one thing, having a PvP mode (in the same way Starcraft has) would in my opinion give Factorio the extra challenge many potential players are looking for.

Due to the many aspects of the production line like energy, raw materials, production and transport, an opponent's base can be strategically sabotaged. This results in the need for a trade-off during base building between speed, production expansion and investing in defense (turrets, making redundant power/supply lines). With human opponents, and indeed with the right balancing, different strategies would be developed and countered.

This makes for engaging Let's Plays in Youtube, helping in the promotion of this fascinating game.

Just my 0.02
what about hijacking an opponents supply lines, find an undefended power plant and build a bunch of turrets that shoot HIM while using his energy....
or sneaking an inserter +wooden box onto his coal/ore belts and just emptying it every now and then (safer than redirecting the entire belt to your base, or have logistics robots pick it up)
trouble is that PvP would rely on stealth and sudden offense, none of the towers are strong enough o quickly take out the cruise missile of factorio (car) all it takes is one well timed charge to plow most factories into disarray, although it'd make a really good reason to keep bullet turrets in, laser turrets can be brought down with a single cut wire

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Re: Fight

Post by orbito » Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:38 pm

Dakkanor wrote: what about hijacking an opponents supply lines, find an undefended power plant and build a bunch of turrets that shoot HIM while using his energy....
This is a really cool idea. :) The more interaction between bases the better.

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Re: Fight

Post by THENIRL » Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:16 pm

I think that buffing the player character, or some sort of robotic avatar, is a great idea. Lots of research possibilities there to build our hero. Maybe some "engineering" buffs too... they could be used to upgrade machinery to work faster, for example. Or to require less materials when building some stuff by hand.
Or just turn our character into a freaking monster of a tank, with a freaking strong and badass nuclear powered battle suit, like the Landmates in Appleseed, with fraking missiles flying out of the nostrils, machineguns in the bellybutton, flamethrowers on the shoulders, miniguns at the forearms and a freaking huge badass MALLET for close quarters combat! Damn, those suits would be awesome!

That being said, I don't think it's a priority. Mechs are a priority though... yay for mechs, lots of mechs. But no micromanaging them! Base their action on simple commands. :mrgreen:

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Re: Fight

Post by SilverWarior » Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:30 pm

While all of theese features mentioned seem nice I would still rather see that developers allow us to go and try developing computer AI. This way we could make creapers a bit smarther and moders could go and build new units. This would add much more variety to the current game fighting. Later on we will se in which way this would lead.

As for enhancing main character just give him more special slots (legs, torso, arms, head) so new items for theese slots could be developed. And all character enhancments could be done only by using theese items.

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Re: Fight

Post by ficolas » Fri Mar 29, 2013 6:46 pm

I think that entities AI for mods will be in 0.3,.
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Re: Fight

Post by Phantasm » Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:51 pm

A bit old topic, but I really like this idea. However, it should be more of a generic power suit. It should also have improvements for production aspect. As not everyone wants to fight the enemy head on. Faster manufacturing of items, more storage, more movement speed, copy assistant (autofill bluprint?), repair system, ... Then player could customize the slots to best fit his/her playing style.

Instead of different amount of slots, for realism sake there could rather be certain fixed slots. But higher level suits would allow better equipment into the slots. Or possibly add 1-2 extra slots at some point. It could be either fixed levels of items or just generic energy production based limit that would allow more freedom.

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Re: Fight

Post by Imp0815 » Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:35 pm

Improve the fighting not by adding more content (i really don't like all the micro management with the new armor upgrades), make the mechanics better.

For example introduce side rolling and jumping. It could be achieved easy even in a 2D isometric game just let the player avoid collision in a distance and make a nice animation for it.
It would be skilled when you just roll away before the rockets hit you and they explode on the ground.

Maybe make hit zones on the creepers. I played 2D flash games where when you point the crosshair at a specific point at the enemy you could score double the damage.

Also sprinting and stamina could extend the depth of combat a little more.

I think the the current fighting speed isn't very enjoy able. Its just to fast to make an enjoyment out of it its more like a hectic annoyance that you have to deal with. You mainly loose not because you are a bad player, more of you are a human and you can't react as fast as the enemy attacks your factory from the other side of the map and you just have to make your way there and while you travel they eaten the whole factory defense line.
You should consider make this a little bit slower and balance it a bit more. Maybe let enemy's have special attacks like a charge or jumps but there fore they are slower and the player could move a little slower in fight also.
I know it would be a big game change at the moment but its just a proposal from me.

The main point i want to address is: You don't improve your fighting with more weapons but with more mechanics.

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Re: Fight

Post by FreeER » Fri Oct 18, 2013 7:38 pm

Imp0815 wrote:For example introduce side rolling and jumping. It could be achieved easy even in a 2D isometric game just let the player avoid collision in a distance and make a nice animation for it.
It would be skilled when you just roll away before the rockets hit you and they explode on the ground.
realistically there is no way that you could 'roll away' OR 'jump' far enough to avoid a rocket exploding (not to mention most modern rockets do not actually hit their target before exploding). Same for the biters, you will almost never be fighting a biter one on one and even if you were jumping/rolling typically reduces accuracy more than simply running backwards.
Maybe make hit zones on the creepers. I played 2D flash games where when you point the crosshair at a specific point at the enemy you could score double the damage.
Not a bad idea except that when you have 6-20 biters coming at you (unless you have a sniper rifle) you are not going to be able to worry about aiming simply killing as fast as possible. Also, none of the weapons in factorio are really 'aimed' (except maybe the railgun, even shotgun and flamethrower cover a wide area and it's somewhat difficult to miss). Not sure how easy this would be to change/implement.
Also sprinting and stamina could extend the depth of combat a little more.
you already can not outrun the biters...
I think the the current fighting speed isn't very enjoy able. Its just to fast to make an enjoyment out of it its more like a hectic annoyance that you have to deal with. You mainly loose not because you are a bad player, more of you are a human and you can't react as fast as the enemy attacks your factory from the other side of the map and you just have to make your way there and while you travel they eaten the whole factory defense line.
You should consider make this a little bit slower and balance it a bit more. Maybe let enemy's have special attacks like a charge or jumps but there fore they are slower and the player could move a little slower in fight also.
If you build a good defense (and building/designing is the basis of Factorio) the only time you are fighting yourself is when you need to collect some alien artifacts or gain more space to build.
I know it would be a big game change at the moment but its just a proposal from me.

The main point i want to address is: You don't improve your fighting with more weapons but with more mechanics.
I'm not trying to say all of this is stupid and the fighting in Factorio should stay the same. What I'm pointing out is that Factorio is not exactly designed as a "Kill all of these creatures with fancy jumping and rolling but make sure you don't jump and roll too much or you will be a sitting duck (staminia)"
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Re: Fight

Post by Imp0815 » Wed Oct 23, 2013 1:53 pm

FreeER wrote:realistically there is no way that you could 'roll away' OR 'jump' far enough to avoid a rocket exploding (not to mention most modern rockets do not actually hit their target before exploding). Same for the biters, you will almost never be fighting a biter one on one and even if you were jumping/rolling typically reduces accuracy more than simply running backwards.
Yes realistically you cant "roll away" from a rocket explosion. But realistically rocket are not made out of steel, gears and circuits. You see where such arguments leads? So i wont go deep into this kind of discussion and tell you instead that these are things that many games implement to improve the general experience for the player. They feel more in control of the situation and they can prove their skill to just know when and where to roll. This gives the player a positive feeling and this is good for the game.
Not a bad idea except that when you have 6-20 biters coming at you (unless you have a sniper rifle) you are not going to be able to worry about aiming simply killing as fast as possible. Also, none of the weapons in factorio are really 'aimed' (except maybe the railgun, even shotgun and flamethrower cover a wide area and it's somewhat difficult to miss). Not sure how easy this would be to change/implement.
That is the Question, how easy would it be to implement? But anyways its just a proposal from me to improve the fighting mechanics. It will also give the player a good feedback when he kills off five creepers with aimed shots because he know how to aim properly. Just remember the feeling when you shot a pilot out of a helicopter in BF3, that's where we should aim here. (I just see the next reply in front of my inner eye "BUT FACTORIO IS NOT BF3!!!!")
you already can not outrun the biters...
Yeah but this can be a "subject to change" when you can sprint, roll or jump you can make a tactical decision to bring you in a better spot to fight off the enemy.
This brings a new level of depth to the fighting instead of just running away in a straight line. Yeah you must alter the behaviors and maybe add a little bit of AI to the creepers so they perform leaps and jumps, but this it would improve the gameplay significant.
I'm just saying, it wasn't fun to kite around and shoot backwards and now it isn't fun because they out run you, overwhelm you and kill you.
If you build a good defense (and building/designing is the basis of Factorio) the only time you are fighting yourself is when you need to collect some alien artifacts or gain more space to build.
I'm not trying to say all of this is stupid and the fighting in Factorio should stay the same. What I'm pointing out is that Factorio is not exactly designed as a "Kill all of these creatures with fancy jumping and rolling but make sure you don't jump and roll too much or you will be a sitting duck (staminia)"
You know what? I don't fighting in Factorio at all because its no fun and frustrating. I really want to see the active fighting to swap in a passive fighting (like Overlord or Picmen). But that's what I want and surprisingly enough there are people out there that actually enjoy 2D isomeric shooting games. So i warped my mind around to come up with these suggestions to improve the fighting in this game. And now here comes you, not giving any constructive suggestions to improve the game experience for every one. :D

So i'm asking you know "What should be done to Improve the fighting in Factorio?"

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Re: Fight

Post by Dysoch » Wed Oct 23, 2013 2:01 pm

Rolling is not something i want to see in this game. Real simple reason, rockets are advanced, and heatseeking. So they will always follow you.
The worms poison attack is something different. That shouldnt be following the player.(currently doing just that)

Sniper rifle, i like that idea, will be in the next version of my mod
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Re: Fight

Post by ssilk » Wed Oct 23, 2013 4:58 pm

With one of his statement I think he is right: fight is in my eyes sometimes (!) frustrating. You have so many possibilities to equip and need to configure and do some things, that if you forget one step or choose the wrong equipment, you die. Like in reality. And like in reality I think the things should be easier, more self explaining, more automatic.

I don't know, if that includes that we need to sniper, or rolling... But potentially not, because that means, that more keys must be pressed, more equipment, more other stuff... I think before that I need something, which gives me a clue, how I can fight them. Eventually a simple button, which shows how I can stand against the selected enemy with this weapon, or some more ideas like that.
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Re: Fight

Post by FreeER » Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:58 pm

ssilk wrote:Eventually a simple button, which shows how I can stand against the selected enemy with this weapon, or some more ideas like that.
So something like a Heads Up Display (HUD) that can be inserted into modular/power armor and shows the weaknesses/resistances the selected enemy has and, possibly, the best weapon to use? I say possibly because it may be difficult to calculate the 'best' weapons, if it's a group then you'll probably want a weapon with Area of Effect (AOE) damage, unless the damage is weak or you are too close to your own structures and if the target has a long attack range (worms) you might want either a long range weapon to use against them (rocket/sniper) OR a high damage weapon like the flamethrower. That's why I said probably on the suggested weapon, there are many things to think about (and would you want the HUD to display only from the weapons you have equipped, or in your inventory, or unlocked, or the 'best' in the game unlocked or not?)
Imp0815 wrote:So i'm asking you know "What should be done to Improve the fighting in Factorio?"
First, sorry about being so critical, and yes Factorio is not BF3 :) Now, My personal opinion of the fighting in factorio is that there is little interaction with the 'natives'. You either build a large base which produces pollution and causing attacks, or you stay as small as possible until you get enough weaponry that you feel comfortable expanding/attacking (my choice, I also use the treefarm mod to absorb as much pollution as possible, my base looks like some weird national park lol).

The other side (which you were talking about) is that the fighting is very repetitive, they come and you shoot at them (or use turrets/robots). I think the best way around this is to have different types of enemies (that are not just harder to kill, and/or look different) and instead of having all of the enemies in range of the player head straight at you have, say, a commander that can send the small (fast) biters behind the player and prevent him from running back to his base, and then send the big biters (to absorb the damage) straight at the player with some medium biters right behind. Taking out the commander would send the biters either back to normal behavior or, once several have been killed, back to their base (morale/fear level).

If the player is attacking a base then, if it is a small base and there are other relatively nearby bases, perhaps the commanders (perhaps one for every two or three spawners) would send some biters off to bring reinforcements and have the rest take up guard positions, taking out the commanders quickly would prevent this and also stop/slow the spawning of reinforcements. If it is a large base then it would be less likely for the commanders to send reinforcements (it's one small human against dozens of aliens right?), but taking out the commanders would still slow the spawning of reinforcements, and perhaps send some of the nearby biters off to hide from the player. The spawners could also have a "max produced in time" so that they are not constantly bringing more biters into the fight, instead only being able to spawn say, 20 biters every five minutes (if this was done the un-produced biters would not stack, say if 10 were produced and five minutes past it would not then be able to produce 30).

Also, from looking at some of the changes to the enemies it seems like it could be possible to have the biters (or another enemy unit) use something other than a melee attack, maybe even a weaker version of the acid projectiles the worms use. This would change the fighting a good bit, you wouldn't just be swarmed by biters but you'd also have enemies standing back and shooting at you (of course there is the question of accuracy, especially if they fire while chasing you).

Also, not sure how much this may change combat for people but I'm working on two mods, one that will introduce cloning (you build cloning-tank, die, respawn at cloning tank with some remains, and your items, back where you died so you can retrieve them) and the other is a mind control beacon (place it, enemies that come within an area of 10 have a 20% chance of being converted to your allies every 6 seconds, when they leave the area they currently are reverted back to enemies), the mind control mod probably will need some additional balancing though :)
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