Role playing direction

Give feedback on topics proposed by the developers.
ficolas
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Re: Role playing direction

Post by ficolas » Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:57 pm

andzoak wrote:I don't like to add something like xp. I think everything should be upgraded by making more advanced tools/machinery. We don't need perks to speed of melting, we need better furnaces etc.
anti-rpg-er!! D:

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Re: Role playing direction

Post by Dakkanor » Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:26 am

ficolas wrote:
andzoak wrote:I don't like to add something like xp. I think everything should be upgraded by making more advanced tools/machinery. We don't need perks to speed of melting, we need better furnaces etc.
anti-rpg-er!! D:
i would actually agree with him more than with xp and leveling,

i've already shared ideas here but i have a few more,

what if we had an upgrading station instead of xp and leveling? so instead of gathering xp to level it gets treated like science?

either have science kits + upgrade kits OR several types of upgrade kits which get processed into any upgrades and levels?

then you could have a base suit which has slots for upgrades which acts to limit what you can place at once, it would also act like your current level.

so:
Level 1 suit = 1 slot, 0% boost(health, speed, strength ect)
Level 2 suit = 2 slots, 5% boost
Level 3 suit = 3 slots, 10% boost
Etc....
this give a pseudo rpg system without changing the feeling of Factorio

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Re: Role playing direction

Post by Flowkap » Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:00 am

I also suggest to avoid more rpg elements but create a higher tech complexity like suggested by the posters before me.

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Re: Role playing direction

Post by lady2isis » Sat Jul 20, 2013 2:11 pm

i can't really give much input right now, perhaps in the future after i've played the game a bit more,

but i 100% support this idea of going down the RTS way. it makes the game more fun and more appealing to more gamers, as some prefer fighting whereas others prefer to be more technical.

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Re: Role playing direction

Post by Grey » Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:09 pm

maybe we should not deciede if a specific idea is good to have in the game or not. maybe we should gather the ideas and speak with the team to make it possible to implement them in mods.

so if you have a multiplayer server, and want rpg elements? just load an rpg mod. if you want an AI society to trade with -> mod. rts elements with ai controlled robots which help you fighting-> mod. and everyone could decide what he wants to enhance basic gameplay with.

i would also like the idea of implementing a genremix like savage what would be really interesting for multiplayer play. 1 player playing rts and "commanding" the rpg players. the players get points for fullfilling tasks from commander and so on ... but the problem that some things are really deep in the system, so its very difficult to provide a mod api which features this possibilites.

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Re: Role playing direction

Post by ficolas » Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:17 pm

Grey wrote:maybe we should not deciede if a specific idea is good to have in the game or not. maybe we should gather the ideas and speak with the team to make it possible to implement them in mods.

so if you have a multiplayer server, and want rpg elements? just load an rpg mod. if you want an AI society to trade with -> mod. rts elements with ai controlled robots which help you fighting-> mod. and everyone could decide what he wants to enhance basic gameplay with.

i would also like the idea of implementing a genremix like savage what would be really interesting for multiplayer play. 1 player playing rts and "commanding" the rpg players. the players get points for fullfilling tasks from commander and so on ... but the problem that some things are really deep in the system, so its very difficult to provide a mod api which features this possibilites.
Well since this has been sugested by developers to know our opinion, so they want us to speak if an idea is good or not, but I also agree that beeing choosen by people is better.

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Re: Role playing direction

Post by Darthlawsuit » Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:34 am

I don't think this really belongs in the game. If it was quick and easy to do you could add it for some flavor but this is about building a factory then attacking natives to get more resources and expand your factory. If anything your "roleplaying" would be expanding your technology and getting Mechs or something. Being able to specalize your armor would be really neat. Build an engineer set, a defensive set, offensive set, etc. Have a cooldown on switching to prevent it from being over used. Focus on this game being about technology and research not the next skyrim.

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Re: Role playing direction

Post by Balthazar » Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:02 pm

andzoak wrote:I don't like to add something like xp. I think everything should be upgraded by making more advanced tools/machinery. We don't need perks to speed of melting, we need better furnaces etc.
This. Right now factorio and modded minecraft are the only games that do the whole factory building thing, while theres tons of survival rpg stuff around, like Don't Starve.

I fundamentally dont think this game has any potential as a non-cooperative multiplayer game; there are WAY too many things you can do to screw your opponent over effortlessly and people die way too fast. (Dump gun turret in enemy base, fill with ammo, everything lost 10 minutes into game, destroy any object in a production line and it shuts down, destroy any power line object to unpower everything, instant death minefields, dump burn miners in base - power up coal - massive polution attracting biters.) It would be less 2vs2 combat and more like competitive griefing simulator 2014, unless you make it a custom map with premade defenses and factories, and then its not really factorio anymore.

My biggest issue is that this would take away development time from more important things, like more stuff to build at late game, like the underground mining that was on the kickstarter thing sounds like a MUCH better proposition.
Darthlawsuit wrote:I don't think this really belongs in the game. If it was quick and easy to do you could add it for some flavor but this is about building a factory then attacking natives to get more resources and expand your factory. If anything your "roleplaying" would be expanding your technology and getting Mechs or something. Being able to specalize your armor would be really neat. Build an engineer set, a defensive set, offensive set, etc. Have a cooldown on switching to prevent it from being over used. Focus on this game being about technology and research not the next skyrim.
Having more specialized armor and letting people choose a starting set would be cool imo

Honestly i think there should be less focus on your character, at least later in the game. Running around mining and carrying stuff back and forth is fun early on but once you get to the point where you're just connecting new mines to your rail network, plopping down mines and drones, starting the train before moving on to the next mine it gets extremely tiring running back and forth, and you can't respond to your base being under attack somewhere. Not to mention carrying all your building stuff to a new spot takes a lot of time, if its far away even something simple like stripmining can take ages to setup, and you cant respond to anything messing up elsewhere.

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Re: Role playing direction

Post by TGS » Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:02 am

Imo 'role playing' is put simply. You playing a role. When roleplaying becomes less and less noticeable is when the player themselves is no longer playing a role and they have transcended into a 'god-like' entity with powers far beyond their role. Which ironically many roleplaying games do. The key aspect that remains is that they still retain the individual layer. Factorio is more appropriate as an RTS than a RPG. But that doesn't mean you can't have both. In fact there aren't many RTS's out there with proper individual RPG aspects aside from hero units. But those aren't the player. They are other characters the player controls. What I'm talking about is continue to put/keep the player in charge. But provide incentives for the player to go out and get their hands dirty, while still managing this behemoth machine. Kind of like CEO/Founder's do with their companies in the industrial sector. Often times they go out and inspect sites. Get their hands dirty. Or delegate on a much more localized level. Right now the player is still stuck doing a lot. Once you get drones and proper logistics going you can kind of sit back and let your factory do the work. But then there really isn't anything for you to do other than alt-tab and wait.

This is where RPG aspects can come in. And no I'm not talking about adding XP or special power suits or mechs or anything that simply enhances the player. Those are details. We need direction. We need incentives to put on the armor, to put on the mech suits. To go take down the particularly bad biter infestation so that we can take over that area to get to that valuable resource. So what would the goal be? Add valuable 'rare' resources that only spawned under/near massive biter colonies.

Another possibility is add some really super powerful/awesome unique abandoned factory buildings that greatly enhance what your factory can do. But guarded by giant nests of biters. So you have to clear the biters out to get to them. And it could have a special condition that unlike other buildings it actually takes awhile to 'pick up' so you can't just drive in pick it up and drive out.

Then you could have programmer robot squads and increased colony strength/difficulties. But these robots are linked to your suit. Meaning you have to be with them to assault the colonies.

These are RPG aspects. Things that get the player in on the action. Things that don't necessarily remove or eliminate the RTS options either. You can still do it that way too if you want. Choices. Choices are key. We like choices.

"XP" "Leveling" "Armor" "Gear" these are all modern RPG concepts. They aren't RPG in essence. You can't take a game, slap XP/Leveling/Gear in it and call it an RPG. That's silly. You can run around naked and as long as the game is structured around your role and your character it is effectively an RPG.

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Re: Role playing direction

Post by slpwnd » Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:45 pm

@TGS good points.

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Re: Role playing direction

Post by Darthlawsuit » Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:42 pm

TGS wrote:Then you could have programmer robot squads and increased colony strength/difficulties. But these robots are linked to your suit. Meaning you have to be with them to assault the colonies.

These are RPG aspects. Things that get the player in on the action. Things that don't necessarily remove or eliminate the RTS options either. You can still do it that way too if you want. Choices. Choices are key. We like choices.

"XP" "Leveling" "Armor" "Gear" these are all modern RPG concepts. They aren't RPG in essence. You can't take a game, slap XP/Leveling/Gear in it and call it an RPG. That's silly. You can run around naked and as long as the game is structured around your role and your character it is effectively an RPG.
This would make sense. Having robot squads following you and obeying your commands as you assault the enemy base. You could plan out a means of attack then commit them to doing the attack while your character gets in some tank/mech and assists your robots in destroying the enemy base. Perhaps you are the distraction for the robots or vice-versa.

Power armor in 7.5 has been really great as it did add an RPG aspect to the game. It feels like I am upgrading my character and the resource costs for the upgrades is insane so I have to use the power armor to obtain more resources to be able to upgrade my character. Adding upgradable tanks, mechs, etc would add an RPG element into the game. Player piloted machines that you can upgrade would be an RPG in the sense of factorio. You would end up attacking the enemy base to obtain new resources that you need to add in new upgrades.

Really we just need something to fight with our characters besides turrent spam. When your facing waves of 20 biters, most of them big biters, you just cannot survive without TONS of turrents. Kind of kills the RPG aspects as you are completely useless.

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Re: Role playing direction

Post by Zero_Berz » Tue Dec 17, 2013 4:37 pm

Hi to all.

Scanned briefly (tl:dr) previous posters and want to express my "very important" :D opinion.
When i first Dlled this game (yea pirated copy ofc) it... it was charming. 0.7.5 FActorio had graphic, idea and gameflow EXACTLY matching my taste.
I see the game as little sandbox heaven for technological fascist like me. Afer a few hours of play i opened browser, and got my legal 0.8.0 :) More fun from this little game than from BF4. really. And much cheaper.

As i see it now, no real need of rpg. As previous posters said, if we need to power up our char, we need to up some power ;) . Need str? power armor. Need speed? armored all-terrain vehicle, need hp? 5 layer thick walls and turrets on top is what it should be. RTS? current state is ok. Though some sentry drones to patrol from A to B and to follow-assist-guard will be good. Played "sacrifice"? same thing. For full-time RTS we have TA: Spring

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Re: Role playing direction

Post by TGS » Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:18 pm

Zero_Berz wrote:Hi to all.

Scanned briefly (tl:dr) previous posters and want to express my "very important" :D opinion.
When i first Dlled this game (yea pirated copy ofc) it... it was charming. 0.7.5 FActorio had graphic, idea and gameflow EXACTLY matching my taste.
I see the game as little sandbox heaven for technological fascist like me. Afer a few hours of play i opened browser, and got my legal 0.8.0 :) More fun from this little game than from BF4. really. And much cheaper.

As i see it now, no real need of rpg. As previous posters said, if we need to power up our char, we need to up some power ;) . Need str? power armor. Need speed? armored all-terrain vehicle, need hp? 5 layer thick walls and turrets on top is what it should be. RTS? current state is ok. Though some sentry drones to patrol from A to B and to follow-assist-guard will be good. Played "sacrifice"? same thing. For full-time RTS we have TA: Spring
1. No offense, but given that there is effectively a demo for the game. I find it quite offensive and appalling that you would pirate the game, then confess to said piracy arrogantly on the forums while 'adding your two cents'. Glad you bought the game, but coming onto the forums announcing your piracy of the game is just wrong.

2. I absolutely HATE the logic "For x feature play x game, we don't need it in this one" that is the most silly logic in gaming. So basically a game shouldn't go in a direction because it might step on the toes of another game? I would love for this game to gain RTS elements. It is already better than TA: Spring in that regard imo. And I'm an old TA veteran from back when TA was cutting edge. I loved it. But come on seriously? I see nothing wrong with a game going in whatever direction its developers deem best for the game. If that means tackling old-school games like TA:Spring then all the better for it. Honestly I think Factorio could do better anyway. A much deeper, richer "RTS" experience.

3. You've actually kind of outlined one of the things that IS actually bad about this game. The fact that you think the defensive wall+turret strategy should be applied in an offensive fashion. It doesn't make any sense. I love the turret/tower defense concept. Especially with this game. But it is still just that. DEFENSE. Not offense. If you wish to stop encroaching biters, you need to take the offense. Currently where the game is lacking... definition.

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Re: Role playing direction

Post by Garm » Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:03 pm

He was more talking about utilizing your creations as offence and defence (power armour, vehicles, and turrets) instead of player growing stronger somehow himself. Which I personally agree with - actual player needs to stay weak and fragile, but grow strong due to his machines and creations.

That wasn't the point about turrets being best.

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Re: Role playing direction

Post by TGS » Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:38 pm

Garm wrote:He was more talking about utilizing your creations as offence and defence (power armour, vehicles, and turrets) instead of player growing stronger somehow himself. Which I personally agree with - actual player needs to stay weak and fragile, but grow strong due to his machines and creations.

That wasn't the point about turrets being best.
Except he was pretty clear about using turrets offensively.

I agree that you should use your creations. But not to the point that you as the 'player' are irrelevant. At that point why even have a player character at all? Why have armor? Why have vehicles? The point I'm getting at is that turrets are currently too emphasized as an offense. And it sounded to me like the guy was suggesting we keep it that way. Which just seems silly.

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Re: Role playing direction

Post by Garm » Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:13 am

I did not find him being clear about offensive turrets at all. They were on same level as power armours and vehicles in his sentence. In fact He was suggesting using power armour as offensive part (your STR), while turrets were part of the defense (your HP)

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Re: Role playing direction

Post by Zero_Berz » Wed Dec 18, 2013 3:33 pm

Ah... i think i should make it more clear....
TGS wrote: No offense, but given that there is effectively a demo for the game. I find it quite offensive and appalling that you would pirate the game, then confess to said piracy arrogantly on the forums while 'adding your two cents'. Glad you bought the game, but coming onto the forums announcing your piracy of the game is just wrong.
I`m not a big fan of copyright holywars, so don`t want one. Anyway it`s my way of life after some "experience" with AAA and indy publishers. Basicaly its download->play->buy copy if it`s good IMO.
I`m totally aware, that some people won`t like my ways. I`m ok with it.

TGS wrote: I absolutely HATE the logic "For x feature play x game, we don't need it in this one" that is the most silly logic in gaming. So basically a game shouldn't go in a direction because it might step on the toes of another game? I would love for this game to gain RTS elements. It is already better than TA: Spring in that regard imo. And I'm an old TA veteran from back when TA was cutting edge. I loved it. But come on seriously? I see nothing wrong with a game going in whatever direction its developers deem best for the game. If that means tackling old-school games like TA:Spring then all the better for it. Honestly I think Factorio could do better anyway. A much deeper, richer "RTS" experience.
This topic is for opinions, right? Need i say more? ;)
TGS wrote: You've actually kind of outlined one of the things that IS actually bad about this game. The fact that you think the defensive wall+turret strategy should be applied in an offensive fashion. It doesn't make any sense. I love the turret/tower defense concept. Especially with this game. But it is still just that. DEFENSE. Not offense. If you wish to stop encroaching biters, you need to take the offense. Currently where the game is lacking... definition.
Garm wrote:I did not find him being clear about offensive turrets at all. They were on same level as power armours and vehicles in his sentence. In fact He was suggesting using power armour as offensive part (your STR), while turrets were part of the defense (your HP)
Hmmmm... i should definitely make this clear.
1)No, i don`t think turret crawl is ok here. Garm right.
2)Yes, i think turrets can and should be used offensively. Only as one of tools in a LARGE arsenal of options. If i can assault hive with 100500 attack robots, or plow trough it on my Baneblade-like tank, i won`t use turret crawling.
Garm wrote:He was more talking about utilizing your creations as offence and defence (power armour, vehicles, and turrets) instead of player growing stronger somehow himself. Which I personally agree with - actual player needs to stay weak and fragile, but grow strong due to his machines and creations.

That wasn't the point about turrets being best.
3) Yes. Weak and fragile. Just like that. We, human race don`t have claws, fangs, scales. We don`t need this. We have steel, electricity, lasers and atomic power :twisted:

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Re: Role playing direction

Post by slpwnd » Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:15 am

Moved posts regarding pirating / testing game on torrents to the new topic: https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... f=5&t=1821

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Re: Role playing direction

Post by TGS » Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:02 am

Zero_Berz wrote:Hmmmm... i should definitely make this clear.
1)No, i don`t think turret crawl is ok here. Garm right.
2)Yes, i think turrets can and should be used offensively. Only as one of tools in a LARGE arsenal of options. If i can assault hive with 100500 attack robots, or plow trough it on my Baneblade-like tank, i won`t use turret crawling.
Garm wrote:He was more talking about utilizing your creations as offence and defence (power armour, vehicles, and turrets) instead of player growing stronger somehow himself. Which I personally agree with - actual player needs to stay weak and fragile, but grow strong due to his machines and creations.

That wasn't the point about turrets being best.
3) Yes. Weak and fragile. Just like that. We, human race don`t have claws, fangs, scales. We don`t need this. We have steel, electricity, lasers and atomic power :twisted:
See this is where I have to say I'm confused. A 'turret' is a fixed defensive structure. Using a turret offensively suggests mobility. I agree completely that the player should use their factory and their creations offensively, defensively and economically. However there are things clearly designed for defense, and things clearly designed for offense. And things that have hybrid purposes.

I don't really agree however that the player should remain fragile and weak, naturally that is what the armor/vehicles are for. I guess maybe this is just a breakdown in communication or language barrier perhaps. Building walls, turrets shouldn't be attributed to 'HP' or 'Stamina' in the sense of say an RPG for the simple fact that 'you' are not the factory. The factory is not the entity. You are. The player character is separate to the factory. The player character can use the factory sure but they are in fact separate from it. Perhaps that is why you thought it is best to keep the RTS stuff to other RTSes? I'm not really sure. But I think this game could encompass a lot of aspects from several genres and do it successfully. I'm all about giving players options. Sure if a player wants to use their turrets offensively great! more power to them. But that shouldn't be the optimal 'option'. Nor should it even really be a contender. That isn't to say that there can't be other factory based offensive functionality added. For example artillery cannons that you could build and setup to fire shells at biter camps. But they require 'expensive' shells and are immobile. However you could have them attached to a trailer so that they could be moved around IE a defensive-offensive hybrid structure. Because it can be both fixed and mobile.

Also I apologise if I came off as if I was bashing your opinion, I understand that it is about opinions. Some logic is just unnecessarily limiting to the potential growth of a game. If games tried not to impede on things other games did we'd never have cool hybrid games that push the boundaries.

I'm sure in the end Factorio will be awesome because they will adopt a lot of aspects of a lot of games.

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Re: Role playing direction

Post by slpwnd » Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:26 am

This has been discussed at other places before, so just in short.

Using turrets offensively is something we consider to be more of a bug than a desired feature. It creates complications because they need to be strong enough for the defense, but also not too strong for the offence. So the solution I like the most so far is use something like "zerg creep" around the enemy bases and prevent using turrets for offensive this way. And yeah, this would also solve the "build-walls-around-yourself-in-couple-of-seconds-when-being-attacked-by-the-biters" strategy. Which I also consider flawed.

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