Hidden ores

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kovarex
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Hidden ores

Post by kovarex » Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:36 pm

Edit: We decided to drop this idea for Factorio. At least for the current one, so I'm locking this thread.

Later in the game (advanced technologies would be needed for this), the player could start with underground mining, this would have 2 phases.

Searching for resources
Underground resources wouldn't be so easy to spot, the player would have to do special drills to scan the nearby underground, when he finds something there, specialised mining drills that mine underground could be used there.

Some of the resources could be found only in underground.

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Re: Hidden ores

Post by MatLaPatate » Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:33 pm

I would suggest some very useful ore, that wouldn't be minable with buildings, just by hand. This would encourage the "adventure" aspect of the game. Because building system for building system is cool, but what's the point if at the end it doesn't make you able to afford advanced stuff, for the character itself ? I've already talked about this on the IC² forum (^^), but I mean, this has to be done if you don't want the game to become RTS only :)

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Re: Hidden ores

Post by Narc » Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:40 am

The way I'd like to see this working is actually allowing the player to enter the underground -- even if only as simple as making elevators that transport you from the overworld map to one or more underground maps. This also gives you a chance to play with the lighting systems some more, as well as world-genned caves.

I'd still want to be able to survey the resources in an area without going down there, though.

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Re: Hidden ores

Post by DragonPox90210 » Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:21 pm

Underground mining would be really cool, there would have to be lots of incentive to go mining (rare ores of course :D) but don't make it so that just rare ores are underground, have it so that scanners can detect things buried but don't tell what it is and then you can mine it and find something rare or maybe a common ore (maybe tin?) then have it so that there are better scanners that can detect the type of ore it is (maybe have more buried alien artifacts?) and while we're talking about underground things oil comes to mind :D but I can't think of uses for it that coal and electricity already take care of

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Re: Hidden ores

Post by kwiz » Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:33 am

I really don't know much about programing, but there are values given in the world-creating screen for the abundance of resources (labeled from very rare to very frequent). I was thinking it would be nice (and possibly a shortcut programming-wise) if a radar (gotta find a use for these things) scan of an underground cavern would return readings like this. The readings would be something like: Diamonds- Very Rare, Copper-Very Frequent, Coal-Average, Iron-Frequent, Uranium-None, etc.
Then the players would run around looking for a scan that had frequent or very frequent readings for the resource they wanted. Also, on the topic of mining down there, I think we could allow large mining quantities of common ores, while reducing the quanties allowed for mining rarer ores, or perhaps severely reduce the field size and increase the mining difficulty (such as diamond rating a 9, and only a certain type of drill can even mine it, or the player can mine it manually with an easier-to-produce pickaxe). I don't know if you are thinking of creating a parallel underground map, or treating it like an oil field, where you just set up your mining aparatus and let it exhaust the resources it is built over. For the second one, the radar would really be quite useful.

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Re: Hidden ores

Post by MatLaPatate » Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:00 pm

No please, NO DIAMONDS. It's part of MC, and it's cool in MC, but as there are already guys stupid enough to say "hey, it's a MC-like" ... btw, diamond has almost no industrial uses IRL (I mean, it has some, but for its price ... it's very often replaced by an synthetized one, or by something else very resistant).

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Re: Hidden ores

Post by Milaha » Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:36 pm

MatLaPatate wrote:No please, NO DIAMONDS. It's part of MC, and it's cool in MC, but as there are already guys stupid enough to say "hey, it's a MC-like" ... btw, diamond has almost no industrial uses IRL (I mean, it has some, but for its price ... it's very often replaced by an synthetized one, or by something else very resistant).
Actually, the majority of mined diamonds are not suitable for gemstones and end up in industrial uses even today. A big motivator for large scale diamond mining was that we needed more diamonds for industry. We ended up hitting the mother load in Africa though and DeBeers managed to corner the market at the same time. They went on a hardcore advertising campaign and basically tricked everyone into thinking diamonds were the ultimate symbol of love and essentially created their value out of nowhere. Only (much) later did we figure out how to make cheap synthetic diamonds, which was good because now we use TONS of them in industry (literally). Beyond that even, we can now make synthetic diamonds that are actually better for industrial uses than natural ones.

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Re: Hidden ores

Post by MatLaPatate » Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:00 pm

Milaha wrote:
MatLaPatate wrote:No please, NO DIAMONDS. It's part of MC, and it's cool in MC, but as there are already guys stupid enough to say "hey, it's a MC-like" ... btw, diamond has almost no industrial uses IRL (I mean, it has some, but for its price ... it's very often replaced by an synthetized one, or by something else very resistant).
Actually, the majority of mined diamonds are not suitable for gemstones and end up in industrial uses even today. A big motivator for large scale diamond mining was that we needed more diamonds for industry. We ended up hitting the mother load in Africa though and DeBeers managed to corner the market at the same time. They went on a hardcore advertising campaign and basically tricked everyone into thinking diamonds were the ultimate symbol of love and essentially created their value out of nowhere. Only (much) later did we figure out how to make cheap synthetic diamonds, which was good because now we use TONS of them in industry (literally). Beyond that even, we can now make synthetic diamonds that are actually better for industrial uses than natural ones.

Yeah, but don't you think aluminium is more used than diamonds ? I think so. There are tons of things that should come before diamonds.

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Re: Hidden ores

Post by Milaha » Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:54 pm

MatLaPatate wrote:Yeah, but don't you think aluminium is more used than diamonds ? I think so. There are tons of things that should come before diamonds.
Well, aluminum gets used more because there is more of it. It is crazy abundant. It has very few remarkable properties though. It is ultra-cheap, light, and relatively strong, and that makes it a good material for many objects, especially consumer goods and transportation. In a world without aluminum (or simply more rare aluminum) other substances would be able to take its place without too much trouble for most applications. Diamonds pretty uniquely fulfill every major role that they play.

One thing that I would find interesting though is the inclusion of platinum. It is relatively rare, has a lot of uses in research and industry, and also has some rare isotopes that are particularly desirable for specific applications. So valuable in fact that they are a big part of the motivation for companies to try and mine asteroids.

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Re: Hidden ores

Post by MatLaPatate » Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:38 pm

Milaha wrote:
MatLaPatate wrote:Yeah, but don't you think aluminium is more used than diamonds ? I think so. There are tons of things that should come before diamonds.
Well, aluminum gets used more because there is more of it. It is crazy abundant. It has very few remarkable properties though. It is ultra-cheap, light, and relatively strong, and that makes it a good material for many objects, especially consumer goods and transportation. In a world without aluminum (or simply more rare aluminum) other substances would be able to take its place without too much trouble for most applications. Diamonds pretty uniquely fulfill every major role that they play.

One thing that I would find interesting though is the inclusion of platinum. It is relatively rare, has a lot of uses in research and industry, and also has some rare isotopes that are particularly desirable for specific applications. So valuable in fact that they are a big part of the motivation for companies to try and mine asteroids.
Yup, but you could also consider tons of others metals ... and basically, if carbon isn't very rare on most of planets, diamonds are ^^. Moreover, they're often used in little amounts for techs ... that aren't really in Factorio. I mean, for now factorio is mainly made out of heavy industry, not things where you need to be accurate ^^.

But yeah, Platinum would be good ... it contains Iridium, my favorite element ^^ (2nd denser after Osmium). But gold/silver should maybe come before.

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Re: Hidden ores

Post by Shalashalska » Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:52 am

MatLaPatate wrote:
Milaha wrote:
MatLaPatate wrote:Yeah, but don't you think aluminium is more used than diamonds ? I think so. There are tons of things that should come before diamonds.
Well, aluminum gets used more because there is more of it. It is crazy abundant. It has very few remarkable properties though. It is ultra-cheap, light, and relatively strong, and that makes it a good material for many objects, especially consumer goods and transportation. In a world without aluminum (or simply more rare aluminum) other substances would be able to take its place without too much trouble for most applications. Diamonds pretty uniquely fulfill every major role that they play.

One thing that I would find interesting though is the inclusion of platinum. It is relatively rare, has a lot of uses in research and industry, and also has some rare isotopes that are particularly desirable for specific applications. So valuable in fact that they are a big part of the motivation for companies to try and mine asteroids.
Yup, but you could also consider tons of others metals ... and basically, if carbon isn't very rare on most of planets, diamonds are ^^. Moreover, they're often used in little amounts for techs ... that aren't really in Factorio. I mean, for now factorio is mainly made out of heavy industry, not things where you need to be accurate ^^.

But yeah, Platinum would be good ... it contains Iridium, my favorite element ^^ (2nd denser after Osmium). But gold/silver should maybe come before.
Just going to mention the fact that platinum doesn't technically contain iridium, it's just that commonly refined platinum will actually be an alloy ~80% platinum, 10% iridium, 10% osmium. And iridium has far more uses for platinum, given that it's nigh indestructible and corrodes less than platinum.
According to wiki, "It is the only metal to maintain good mechanical properties in air at temperatures above 1600 °C" so perhaps some uses in high-heat machines?

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Re: Hidden ores

Post by MatLaPatate » Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:44 am

Shalashalska wrote:Just going to mention the fact that platinum doesn't technically contain iridium, it's just that commonly refined platinum will actually be an alloy ~80% platinium, 10% iridium, 10% osmium.
Derp I knew that, it's just that it is also found in most of ores containing Platinum ...
Btw, Titanium would be neat also. And Tungsten. And Zinc/Nickel/Lead also maybe ^^. But the fact is, this topic is supposed to deal with rares ores, so let's say Tungsten/Titanium/Platinium/Uranium.

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Re: Hidden ores

Post by orbito » Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:10 am

kovarex wrote:Later in the game (advanced technologies would be needed for this), the player could start with underground mining, this would have 2 phases.

Searching for resources
Underground resources wouldn't be so easy to spot, the player would have to do special drills to scan the nearby underground, when he finds something there, specialised mining drills that mine underground could be used there.

Some of the resources could be found only in underground.
I love this idea. :D

The concept of "scanning" underground would be visually interesting. And this could provide new geothermal power which utilizes lava and water to make steam. I like the idea that more advanced technology could require resources found at depths also. If you want to take this concept further, you could also have Earth-quakes caused by deep drilling and volcanic eruptions. There are tons of possibilities.

Will it ever be possible for the player to travel underground? Because that might be a good way to sneak into an enemy base.

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Re: Hidden ores

Post by ficolas » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:51 pm

MatLaPatate wrote:No please, NO DIAMONDS. It's part of MC, and it's cool in MC, but as there are already guys stupid enough to say "hey, it's a MC-like" ... btw, diamond has almost no industrial uses IRL (I mean, it has some, but for its price ... it's very often replaced by an synthetized one, or by something else very resistant).
Lasers use supersmalltiny diamonds irl

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Re: Hidden ores

Post by orbito » Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:51 am

I'm more excited about ore types like Adamantium or Mithril. Diamonds don't matter much to me. In Minecraft diamonds are used very unrealistically; but if they were used in Factorio they would be more realistic (diamond-tipped saws or used in lasers). In Minecraft you make swords and armor out of it, which wouldn't happen in real life. New types of heavy metals are more interesting.

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Re: Hidden ores

Post by MatLaPatate » Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:44 pm

orbito wrote:I'm more excited about ore types like Adamantium or Mithril. Diamonds don't matter much to me. In Minecraft diamonds are used very unrealistically; but if they were used in Factorio they would be more realistic (diamond-tipped saws or used in lasers). In Minecraft you make swords and armor out of it, which wouldn't happen in real life. New types of heavy metals are more interesting.
Adamantium and Mithril ? You know guys these aren't real, and wouldn't fit with Factorio (especially mithril ^^), as they're not from SF, but more from Fantasy ? (at least, Adamantium is half SF/Half Fantasy).
Btw, the point is, before thinking "it's realistic" "it's not" or anything else, an ore need to be useful for the game: what would change the ore you wanna add ? That's the question you have to answer.
As an example, I think we would need aluminum, with processing machines for it (so it would make even more complex factory ^^, but it could also help to optimize some productions, by making alternative recipies to save some more valuable ressources, and because Aluminium would require a higher level of technology, and that's why I think we should also have Tungsten/Titanium, for both rarity and Technologies needed to process those.

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Re: Hidden ores

Post by orbito » Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:13 pm

MatLaPatate wrote:
orbito wrote:I'm more excited about ore types like Adamantium or Mithril. Diamonds don't matter much to me. In Minecraft diamonds are used very unrealistically; but if they were used in Factorio they would be more realistic (diamond-tipped saws or used in lasers). In Minecraft you make swords and armor out of it, which wouldn't happen in real life. New types of heavy metals are more interesting.
Adamantium and Mithril ? You know guys these aren't real, and wouldn't fit with Factorio (especially mithril ^^), as they're not from SF, but more from Fantasy ? (at least, Adamantium is half SF/Half Fantasy).
There is no telling what new "heavy elements" might be discovered on an alien world. The player might discover a new type of metal and call it <whatever> because when you discover something you get to name it. But I agree that aluminum, tungsten and titanium would be useful additions. But if you're on an alien world you also want to discover something *new*.

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Re: Hidden ores

Post by MatLaPatate » Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:39 pm

orbito wrote: something *new*.
Just to know, what do you know about chemistry ? ^^
Because something new, if you really wanna be realistic, isn't likely to exit. At least it could exist in larger amounts than on earth, but elements heavier than 100 aren't likely to stay as ores on any planet ^^.
This is just called radiactivity. And Aston curve.

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Re: Hidden ores

Post by MF- » Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:43 pm

But that kind of matter is only 5% of the universe.
Dark matter is probably useless to us, but there is still a lot of space for other useful kinds of matter.

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Re: Hidden ores

Post by orbito » Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:04 pm

MatLaPatate wrote:
orbito wrote: something *new*.
Just to know, what do you know about chemistry ? ^^
I know we recently discovered a new 113 element.

http://www.gizmag.com/transuranic-113-d ... pan/24318/

Besides, this is science fiction, not science fact. Reality can be stretched a bit.

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