Fast Upgrade (Belt->Splitters, Small Chests -> Bigger Chests... etc.)

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Fast Upgrade (Belt->Splitters, Small Chests -> Bigger Chests... etc.)

Post by ssilk » Sat Aug 06, 2016 1:48 pm

This suggestion is about upgrading of entities in general (which of course can also be used for downgrading, it's only a configuration).

This suggestion is not a direct extension of the fast-replace-group feature, that already exists (you can fast replace for example identical types of belts). The behavior is only into one direction.

This post describes the problem why it doesn't make sense to have that always in two directions:
bobingabout wrote:Because, the way it works, you can also drop a MK1 assembling machine on top of a MK2. Therefor if you could drop medium poles on top of small poles, you could do the other way around too. Since medium poles have a longer range, that means plopping small poles on top could break the cables.
posting.php?mode=reply&f=6&t=33556#pr211131

My idea about this is, that there are some rules in the entity configuration, that describe, how to replace the current entity with another. This is sometimes not so simple, cause the entities could have different size (see splitter). If there is a rule for the replaced entity, it could be also downgraded (of course) or have circular rules (Belt -> Splitter -> Underground Belt -> Belt)...

The rules can influence how the content of the entity is transfered into the other, how the orientation can change (e.g. replace Belt with Inserter), and some more (the implementation needs not to be complete in beginning).

Those types of rules are also useful for some kind of automatic upgrade, sometimes in the future.


Suggestions

viewtopic.php?f=67&t=4961 allow replacing belts with splitters
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=30482 "Upgrade" yellow belts to yellow-splitters
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=33556 Why aren't medium poles a drop in replacement for small ones
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=35513 Upgrade planner and automatic upgrades


Related

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=28126 Upgrade Planner
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=29558 Get rid of different speed belts
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=29938 Easy upgrade of belts without R-R-R-R-R
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=32175 Electric Pole Upgrades.
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Re: Fast Upgrade (Belt->Splitters, Small Chests -> Bigger Chests... etc.)

Post by Deadly-Bagel » Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:54 pm

This seriously needs more attention. The current system discourages expansion of the factory before blue belts are in production because it's just more stuff you'll need to meticulously replace later. Last week I spent probably an hour upgrading all the belts in my factory, and then another half an hour hunting down all the stragglers. I found one in a 4 > 4 way splitter that would never have been noticed until consumption was nearing four blue belts worth (my green circuit production alone is half that), at which point it would have affected the performance of my factory quite dramatically.

The easiest way to ensure there isn't any stragglers is to use a blueprint and check the components, but this is still a tedious process even without making sure you get all the belt directions correct. Having the ability to auto-concrete would be great too (basically detecting 'landfill' is a tile that can be replaced).

Of course this would best be implemented with another status "awaiting upgrade" which, if applicable, allows the entity to continue functioning and is simply fast-replaced when the required item and a construction bot become available.
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Re: Fast Upgrade (Belt->Splitters, Small Chests -> Bigger Chests... etc.)

Post by Woodmn » Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:02 am

What about some way of designating belts/splitters/etc. so that when placed, robots will use the most advanced belts you have on you for those places.
ie, furnace layout with ore on the outside, coal in the middle, and plates on each side of the coal belt. Plates and ore would be designated 'priority belts' while coal would just stay as (for instance) yellow belts. If you have blue belts it will use blue belts, if you have red it will use red belts, if you only have yellow it will, you guessed it, only use yellow belts.

Just an idea and the upgrade planner would probably be better but it could be useful.
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Re: Fast Upgrade (Belt->Splitters, Small Chests -> Bigger Chests... etc.)

Post by Deadly-Bagel » Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:45 pm

Woodmn wrote:What about some way of designating belts/splitters/etc. so that when placed, robots will use the most advanced belts you have on you for those places.
I'm... not sure I follow. You want a way of setting a ghost entity that uses the most upgraded type of that entity you have? What happens if you're two belts short, that would have to assume that once all your red belts are lain that the remaining two have to be yellow belts? That would defeat the object of laying red belts. Why don't you just put down the type of belt you want? If you don't need a belt upgraded, for example the coal belts, then just don't include those areas in the upgrade planner.

That sounds like a lot of work for very little payoff.
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Re: Fast Upgrade (Belt->Splitters, Small Chests -> Bigger Chests... etc.)

Post by ssilk » Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:09 pm

I mean for belts it is relatively simple to automatically decide if another belt type is "better" or "worse" than yet.
But think to modded walls: What is the better wall? That one with more hitpoints or more resistant to fire?

--> Auto-Update makes no sense. What makes sense is some kind of configuration (like in the upgrade mod).
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Re: Fast Upgrade (Belt->Splitters, Small Chests -> Bigger Chests... etc.)

Post by Deadly-Bagel » Tue Aug 30, 2016 11:10 am

Ahh now I understand the suggestion. A belt automatically flagged for upgrade so when you want to upgrade your factory you just shove a bunch of better belts in a logistic chest and it will just keep upgrading as you make better belts.

You would need the upgrade planner anyway for other problems like replacing turrets - you may wish to go in either direction, and as Ssilk has said this idea only really works for belts and assemblers. Technically furnaces as well but you shouldn't be anywhere near stone furnaces when you get bots. And it -definitely- needs an option to insert modules into machines, last week I had to manually insert efficiency modules into eight arrays of 64 furnaces. Well okay I deconstructed and blueprinted but that came with its own challenges.

What would be cool (but perhaps difficult to develop) is the ability to find and replace a grid of items. Like you can open the upgrade planner and it gives you a pair of grids (would need customisable size). In the first you place entities in a configuration you want to replace, and in the second you set up what you want to replace that with. An option to ignore, remove or void pattern on stray entities found among the search pattern would be required for things such as power poles, lights and oddly placed inserters (obviously for ignore it would need to remove any entities conflicting with the replacement pattern). Might also need an option to search for rotated patterns.

This would allow massive flexibility, such as easy swapping between gun turrets and laser towers. Sure from gun to laser you can deconstruct and blueprint, but this isn't so simple around a whole factory or outpost. Perhaps you have an ammo feed for your turrets, simply swapping to laser is going to leave all that there. You could even keep the gun turrets and simply copy the configuration into the replacement pattern, just adding laser turrets behind them. Maybe you have lasers but now want to add guns with an ammo feed. You could run around your whole base blueprinting but this becomes a chore very quickly. I created a "short" wall blueprint and a "long" wall blueprint but due to the varying length of various walls it's still tedious.

Most obvious problem is if you search for something like five vertical wall entities. This pattern will be found twice in a wall six units long, but trying to apply the replacement twice, one block apart, wouldn't work. Would need to mark entities as found when they match a pattern so they are not "found again" as part of another pattern.

Second problem, any symmetrical search pattern where the replacement pattern is not symmetrical would need to force disable the option to search for rotated patterns. Otherwise which way does it replace? But you still want the option of searching for a wall either side of a rail, and replace with the same plus gates over the rail, which would need to be rotatable.

With all this complexity it might be prudent to add it to something like an "upgrade book" similar to the blueprint book. Using the book invokes all the upgrade plans contained, or you can open it and grab just one the same as you can with the blueprint book.
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Re: Fast Upgrade (Belt->Splitters, Small Chests -> Bigger Chests... etc.)

Post by Deadly-Bagel » Fri Sep 09, 2016 1:34 pm

Additional request, upgrade planner can detect oil fields and automatically place pumpjacks on them.
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Re: Fast Upgrade (Belt->Splitters, Small Chests -> Bigger Chests... etc.)

Post by Slayn25 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:42 am

Any planned changes or updates on this subject?

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Re: Fast Upgrade (Belt->Splitters, Small Chests -> Bigger Chests... etc.)

Post by ssilk » Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:40 pm

Why should someone plan suggestions? That would be also a suggestion. :)
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Re: Fast Upgrade (Belt->Splitters, Small Chests -> Bigger Chests... etc.)

Post by Slayn25 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:23 am

ssilk wrote:Why should someone plan suggestions? That would be also a suggestion. :)
I was referring to future releases lol. I know the deconstruction tool will be receiving some love in 0.15, any talk of upgrade planner functionality?

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Re: Fast Upgrade (Belt->Splitters, Small Chests -> Bigger Chests... etc.)

Post by ssilk » Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:09 am

Ah, o.k.
Nothing known yet, and from development side it makes sense to develop first the simpler things (in this case a filter), then lets see how this is working and then the more complex stuff (in this case: replace filtered elements in a clever way and make that reliable). But that is just what I guess, I really don't know it. :)
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Re: Fast Upgrade (Belt->Splitters, Small Chests -> Bigger Chests... etc.)

Post by jkkopp » Mon May 08, 2017 11:53 am

Mhmm, my english is not the best, but i think so my idea is kind of different.

How about to make these upgrade-phase, with a new kind of blueprint. (let me call it greenprint)

You drag a greenprint over an area => window opens => i could deside which building should be replaced with some different

I define: Yellow belts to red belts, yellow grappler to blue grapler....
=> If all buildings were rebuilt, the green area despawns. => this needs only a proof for needed place for replace not for sence.
The items will be replaced by building robots.

How about this?

Regards

jkkopp

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