Optimized Steam Engine Setup

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Patric20878
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Re: Optimized Steam Engine Setup

Post by Patric20878 »

If I can find a way to minimize boilers per chain in this setup, production dropping due to low consumption bar will no longer be an issue. I'm starting to understand why I had the problem with laser turrets dropping production, where you didn't. You didn't chain boilers. I did with the old setup, often in chains of 9, so the minimum % before production drops was much higher for it than yours, potentially as high as 100% depending on how many times the old setup is stacked. I'll have to see again if I can compact the belts the same way you did in that pic, in groups of 2 with no boiler chains, as opposed to my current design, with the topside of the belt not being chained and the bottomside being chained in groups of 2 and a few at 3 or 4.

Oh and since I now know that threshold is about recovery speed rather than ability to recover, logically then, the inserters must be available immediately from the belt rather than delayed, from being in a boiler chain somewhere, otherwise it causes delay.

And since this is all about delay, I wonder if it's just better to save the 6s or whatever delay it is and just place them at the beginning of the belt. If 14 boilers use 1.75% more coal with 14 burner inserters (not factoring the 14th boiler's slower consumption rate if that makes a slight difference), then 2 burner inserters would use like, 0.25% more coal. Leaning towards this idea, surely you can produce way more in 6s than you can save in coal in a long period, no? Like, in the same time it takes to mine 10000 coal, you either save 25 coal, or you produce some amount in 6 seconds. I think in virtually all stages of the game past early game, you'd produce more than 4 items a second (not to mention each item costs multiple raw materials), heh.

Hmm, actually no, I'd need to know how big the average coal field is. 10000 seems a bit too small for a coal field. With help of the map editor's brush tool to remove ore by area (or just straight up adding all the tiles, but that's tedious), I'm estimating somewhere in the 100k to 1m range. Then if I use 500,000 as the average, it's 1250 coal saved vs some amount produced in 6 seconds. In late-game, should easily still produce more than 1250 raw items worth of stuff per 6 seconds. But not sure about mid-game. If 3 raw items go into crafting something at the basic crafting level, that's 70 items/s. That's like what, 30-40 assemblers?
Last edited by Patric20878 on Wed May 04, 2016 8:20 am, edited 5 times in total.
Tekkit Classic expert and admin of the Tekkit Classic Wikia specializing in factory and frame gunship engineering, creator of the Optimized Steam Engine Setup, and a huge fan of Touhou. My TC designs may be found at https://imgur.com/a/IT0Ya.

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Re: Optimized Steam Engine Setup

Post by Aru »

I see. Because the first inserter has to transfer enough coal to fuel several boilers, it is inhibited at a higher power ratio. You could switch it for a fast inserter. I guess you already know that though.
Patric20878 wrote:Oh and since I now know that threshold is about recovery speed rather than ability to recover, logically then, the inserters must be available immediately from the belt rather than delayed, from being in a boiler chain somewhere, otherwise it causes delay.
If I'd known that distinction was a factor in your current designs, I would have considered more carefully that the "impossible" condition is met with any number of burner inserters. But I was focusing on the minimum needed to prevent delay in restarting.
Patric20878 wrote:And since this is all about delay, I wonder if it's just better to save the 6s or whatever delay it is and just place them at the beginning of the belt. If 14 boilers use 1.75% more coal with 14 burner inserters (not factoring the 14th boiler's slower consumption rate if that makes a slight difference), then 2 burner inserters would use like, 0.25% more coal. Leaning towards this idea, surely you can produce way more in 6s than you can save in coal in a long period, no? Like, in the same time it takes to mine 10000 coal, you either save 25 coal, or you produce some amount in 6 seconds. I think in virtually all stages of the game past early game, you'd produce more than 4 items a second, heh.

Hmm, actually no, I'd need to know how big the average coal field is. 10000 seems a bit too small for a coal field. Happen to know?
I don't, but you can use the YARM mod to find out quickly. It introduces a research, which allows you to craft an item, which you can use to track the size, drain rate and remaining fraction of contiguous resource patches. You click on a resource patch and it tells you the total. If putting the burner inserter at the front improves the design, do it, the difference in coal consumption isn't enough to warrant hindering the design.
Last edited by Aru on Wed May 04, 2016 8:12 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Optimized Steam Engine Setup

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Yeah, that's why the old design used fast inserters at the belt. Since it then uses a long inserter to pull after that, there was no point making the 3rd inserter row also fast inserters.

But since I am placing an emphasis on tech/resource efficiency this time around, a much better solution as mentioned is just keeping boiler chains as small as possible. Makes for a slightly funny setup though, with steam engine rows in groups of 3 and inserter rows in groups of 2, but that's probably an aesthetic concern at best, so isn't all that important.

And cool. I'll be trying that mod then. With its help, it'd be easy to compare coal saved vs production hindered. And yeah, by my intuition, there's no way 0.25% more coal used could ever beat 6 more seconds of production in mid-late game, but I want to make sure heh.

And I should mention, these 4 pages of discussion offered great insight on how to improve steam engine setups on a deep level. So, thanks. Didn't expect there'd be so much more to improve besides the initial stackable, unchained belt feeder design.
Tekkit Classic expert and admin of the Tekkit Classic Wikia specializing in factory and frame gunship engineering, creator of the Optimized Steam Engine Setup, and a huge fan of Touhou. My TC designs may be found at https://imgur.com/a/IT0Ya.

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Re: Optimized Steam Engine Setup

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And it's done! One thing led to another, leading me to finding how to compact 19 steam engines in a 50 by 6 area, and with only small poles! So now just like your design, it takes no research beyond logistics 1, heh. Would've been 29 engines in a 50x9 area too like how it used to be, but the new belt feeding system makes that basically impossible without losing compactness or adding not-so-neat inserter and boiler chains. And fortunately, the lone boiler chain on top left of each 2 rows goes burner inserter to boiler to basic inserter to boiler, and since burner inserters aren't affected by low electricity, this would not count as an actual boiler chain, that would raise minimum consumption bar to operate! I really should just say basic inserter powered boiler chains instead, heh.

Realizing that with this setup, having small pumps to the right of the boilers would no longer save space anymore, I can now put them to the left for the battery setup, and start every row with 2 unspaced engines. And then only from that does the spaced rows barely fit in 50 tiles wide. All that and still kept the design to only 1 row of small poles below the design, with no belts, thanks to the alternating 10/9 engine rows, heh. Pretty happy with the design now - for more info, see the updated original post and the new pictures.

Oh and I tried that YARM mod. Really handy tool. And so measuring sets of 30 coal fields each, I got 200k to 250k being the average coal per field. Then from that, 250,000*0.25% = 625 coal. Then if it takes 3 materials per craft early game, it's saving 625 coal vs producing at least 200 items in the time it takes to deplete the average coal field. Welp, even assuming you notice the coal field running out most the time to prevent steam engine production from stopping, I think it's a certainty that you'll produce FAR more than a couple hundred items per depleted coal field, and this doesn't even include smelting raw materials. Then good, my setup does need the burner inserter for that one boiler chain in the beginning, putting all 3 there without loss is just great!

I wonder if there's any other major optimizations possible beyond this point. Now, compactness, required tech, and resources required are all pretty much optimized. Can't think of much other aspects to improve on now heh.
Tekkit Classic expert and admin of the Tekkit Classic Wikia specializing in factory and frame gunship engineering, creator of the Optimized Steam Engine Setup, and a huge fan of Touhou. My TC designs may be found at https://imgur.com/a/IT0Ya.

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Re: Optimized Steam Engine Setup

Post by Aru »

That is nice, it's compact, 3 tiles shorter. (4 shorter if you count a stretched, movable row of small poles, which can be walked through, so maybe 3.25 or 3.5 shorter)

2.89% less power per raw resource (with same burner inserter count)
4.28% - 5.63% less area
0.04% - 0.39% less power per area (with sparse movable pole row counting as 0.5 - 0.25 width)

Power per area is pretty much the same, but it's smaller overall, and a little costlier per resource. Which is about what I'd conclude from looking at them - 9.5 engines vs. 10, added underground belts. So at least, I wouldn't say that resource is strictly better.

You could probably replace the underground pipes with normal ones, and it would be more resource efficient, but then you couldn't walk through that side. Then it's 0.36% higher power per resource.
Calculation notes

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Re: Optimized Steam Engine Setup

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That is nice, it's compact, 3 tiles shorter. (4 shorter if you count a stretched, movable row of small poles, which can be walked through, so maybe 3.25 or 3.5 shorter)
Eh, the steam engines themselves are 3 tiles narrower, and the belt/pipes are 1 tile narrower, compared to yours, so it's 4 tiles shorter. 67 tiles wide, vs your 71. The 71 includes the poles on the right in your design.

And so, how are you calculating the power by area for my design to actually be lower? I'm understanding that to mean steam engines over rectangular area, so if that wasn't what you were referring to, you can ignore everything below. As the sparse power pole row on the bottom is a flat +1 to total rows in a setup, the height would be 3x+1, since it is literally 3 tiles high per engine row. And like said, you can't just reduce the width just because a row is less occupied than the rest. Why would a distinction be made for a less occupied edge column, vs a less occupied middle column? You can route wires, belts, and even buildings right through the middle of a design if the tiles there aren't occupied too. If its compactness % (occupied tiles / rectangular area) affects its width, I can reduce my design's width instantly by removing a random inserter, an absurd proposal.

On 2 engine rows:
Mine: 67 * [3(2) + 1] = 469 tiles. 469 / 19 = ~24.68 tiles per steam engine.
Yours: 71 * [3(2) + 1] = 497 tiles. 497 / 20 = 24.85 tiles per steam engine.
As that's area over power, not power over area, you can take the inverse of both numbers, or simply divide 24.85/~24.68 instead of the other way around, and the result is, mine has ~0.67% higher power by area, for 2 engine rows.

On 10 engine rows:
Mine: 67 * [3(10) + 1] = 2077. 2077 / 95 = ~21.86 tiles per steam engine.
Yours: 71 * [3(10) + 1] = 2201. 2201 / 100 = 22.01 tiles per steam engine.
Result, mine still has ~0.67% higher power by area.

In any number of steam engine rows, my design's power by area is always higher, and that was a major point of emphasis upgrading the design, to keep it higher or at least equal to the compact power plant and your design. Unfortunately, with this upgrade, since it's no longer arranged in triple rows, power by area did drop slightly, but is still overall higher.

Note: For readers, the numbers in this post are correct and take precedence over the incorrect numbers I posted later, as I edit this post with the latest information to reflect accuracy.
Last edited by Patric20878 on Fri May 06, 2016 6:57 am, edited 4 times in total.
Tekkit Classic expert and admin of the Tekkit Classic Wikia specializing in factory and frame gunship engineering, creator of the Optimized Steam Engine Setup, and a huge fan of Touhou. My TC designs may be found at https://imgur.com/a/IT0Ya.

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Re: Optimized Steam Engine Setup

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Mine doesn't need a row above. And I was using the tileable parts for area. If you count it as 3 shorter as you said, 10 engines per 70 length, vs. 9.5 engines per 67 length, (9.5/67)/(10/70) = 0.99253. But in my post I was counting it as 3.25 and also 3.5 shorter, for the small poles on the right side. Your latest design is a hard 67, I don't know where the 66 comes from. Maybe you counted the offshore pump in one but not the other? The area efficiency comes from this part:
"10*5+2+14+4+(0 to 1) = 70-71
10*5+14+3 = 67"

Page 2:
Aru wrote:Also, the poles at the top can easily be moved down to reduce vertical size by one. Right now they're positioned for an additional row.
And I don't know what you're calling a "less occupied middle column", since you can't put buildings in the middle, and you can't reposition things in the middle.

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Re: Optimized Steam Engine Setup

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Aru wrote:Mine doesn't need a row above. And I was using the tileable parts for area. If you count it as 3 shorter as you said, 10 engines per 70 length, vs. 9.5 engines per 67 length, (9.5/67)/(10/70) = 0.99253. But in my post I was counting it as 3.25 and also 3.5 shorter, for the small poles on the right side. Your latest design is a hard 67, I don't know where the 66 comes from. Maybe you counted the offshore pump in one but not the other? The area efficiency comes from this part:
"10*5+2+14+4+(0 to 1) = 70-71
10*5+14+3 = 67"

Page 2:
Aru wrote:Also, the poles at the top can easily be moved down to reduce vertical size by one. Right now they're positioned for an additional row.
Edited last post to reflect yours not needing 2 flat rows of poles. Read again for why it's 66 hard tiles wide, not 67. It's 10*5+14+2. And yours is 70 soft tiles wide, as in including the small poles.

On the example about middle columns and such, I'm saying that it's an arbitrary definition to just count your design as less than 70 tiles wide just because the last column is a soft 1 tile column. If the middle columns were soft enough, you CAN fit buildings there. No one counts width as less than what it is based on what's in it, the fact that your design's 70th tile is soft doesn't change the fact that it won't fit in a 69 tile wide land mass.
Tekkit Classic expert and admin of the Tekkit Classic Wikia specializing in factory and frame gunship engineering, creator of the Optimized Steam Engine Setup, and a huge fan of Touhou. My TC designs may be found at https://imgur.com/a/IT0Ya.

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Re: Optimized Steam Engine Setup

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It doesn't explain why. Maybe you're not counting the offshore pumps? And I don't think a 69 tile land mass will ever be a problem. The poles can be repositioned, they provide power, they can be (and are) stretched as far apart as possible, you could for example put a row of adjacent assemblers against the side of the engines with no gaps, and move the poles out, and a row of poles doesn't block movement (like the underground pipes).

I still have no idea what you mean by "soft enough". The middle, is steam engines, and boilers, and an offshore pump, and a couple underground pipes. You can't put anything in there but power poles, and it doesn't need extra poles.

My contention, was that they are about the same in power per area, not a 15% difference.

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Re: Optimized Steam Engine Setup

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Yes, I didn't include the offshore pumps for either design, since that's built on water and has nothing to do with occupying land.

And the same can be said of many designs in redstone and circuitry, the edge rows/columns often have wiring that don't need to be repeated when stacking, but it doesn't change the fact that it counts as column. I can use the rightmost side of a steam engine to output into storage tanks too, but you don't see me counting steam engines as 4.5 tiles do you? You counting it as somewhere between 0 and 1 is way too arbitrary, tell me when those poles can allow a solid wall of labs or assemblers to occupy the same space it is, then you can count it as something less. Otherwise, literally, it counts as 1 tile wide. And so does that row of poles needed, it counts as 1 tile high.
Tekkit Classic expert and admin of the Tekkit Classic Wikia specializing in factory and frame gunship engineering, creator of the Optimized Steam Engine Setup, and a huge fan of Touhou. My TC designs may be found at https://imgur.com/a/IT0Ya.

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Re: Optimized Steam Engine Setup

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I already acknowledge that it isn't 15% difference, but the point is, mine is higher in power by area, not lower. By 0.7575..% exactly. Not counting the offshore pumps, the size is also exactly 6.0606% smaller, and I haven't measured the difference between yours and mine's resource cost.
Last edited by Patric20878 on Fri May 06, 2016 5:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Optimized Steam Engine Setup

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Regardless of the appearance, half of it is in the unbuildable water, half is on buildable land. What do storage tanks have to do with it? They don't shrink, can't be repositioned in such a usage, they have a square shape, can't be built inside, and do block movement. And I did say how a wall of labs can occupy that space. You move the poles out, they not only get power from the engines, but would also then power the labs and inserters for the labs.
Last edited by Aru on Fri May 06, 2016 5:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Optimized Steam Engine Setup

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Oh, you're right on the offshore pumps. Sorry, didn't remember they occupy a tile on land too. Then yes, mine is 67 tiles, yours is 71. Updating the math post to reflect that then.

You can't just move the poles out. They don't have that kind of range (4 tiles from center) to power both the labs and connect to the steam engines. And there's no way to attach storage tanks to your design without placing them from after the power pole column either. Your design's 71 tiles wide, whether the power poles on the ends can power other things has no relevance at all to its actual physical width. And in the same way, both our designs are 3x+1 tiles high, where x = number of steam engine rows, not 3x+0.25 or whatever.
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Re: Optimized Steam Engine Setup

Post by Aru »

The heights are the same, that's why I didn't bother. And yes, you would have to use medium poles, or occasional gaps, to put buildings immediately on the edge. You can use 71 if you want, but I consider area with movable power poles to be more useful than area occupied by steam engines and boilers, especially since you need poles to cover buildings anyway.

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Re: Optimized Steam Engine Setup

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Image
Medium poles can connect to the 3 steam engines circled in red? I don't think so ;)

Like said many times, how useful the poles are on the 71th tile doesn't change the fact that it's 71 tiles. See the stone wall structure? That isn't 3 tiles wide, it's 4 tiles wide, even if you can place 4 laser turrets in the gaps!
Tekkit Classic expert and admin of the Tekkit Classic Wikia specializing in factory and frame gunship engineering, creator of the Optimized Steam Engine Setup, and a huge fan of Touhou. My TC designs may be found at https://imgur.com/a/IT0Ya.

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Re: Optimized Steam Engine Setup

Post by Aru »

You're right it can't stretch over the buildings, I thought the range was bigger. You could space out each pair of labs and put a small pole there. Personally I still consider the poles to be more useful than the edge of the steam engine.

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Re: Optimized Steam Engine Setup

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Yeah, but once you space out the labs, you're now making the labs occupy another tile wider. No difference in combined width than if you had simply shifted all labs right of the power poles. While I agree the power poles can and often are useful, utility is simply a nonfactor in measuring physical width. I have so many redstone designs in Minecraft that look a full tile shorter than it's actual size since redstone is flat and doesn't block movement, but in no community, the MC wikia or ORE (the expert redstone community and server), are my designs counted as 1 block shorter, no matter how useful having them on the edges instead of the middle is (and they're almost always useful on the edge)
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Re: Optimized Steam Engine Setup

Post by Aru »

I did not count it as one block shorter, but rather somewhere in between. I thought it was a logical compromise, I was trying to get the most useful numbers I could. And 0.67% difference is still pretty close, for "pretty much the same". And it occupies more area if you shift the buildings over, and adds 1 width.

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Re: Optimized Steam Engine Setup

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I know. But my redstone designs aren't counted as anything more than 0 blocks shorter either, no less somewhere in between. Refer to my last post in the tips, designs, tricks thread - this partial concept you're thinking of is concerned with area density, not area. Partially occupied 1 tile-wide column, but still 1 tile-wide. The partial part is on its rows.
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Re: Optimized Steam Engine Setup

Post by Aru »

The partial concept is concerned with "a logical compromise, I was trying to get the most useful numbers I could", not area density.

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