Progress on my new Factory (formerly: help me fix it)

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silverkitty23
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Progress on my new Factory (formerly: help me fix it)

Post by silverkitty23 »

So this is my "third" base (my third game, first with violent biters, but I've shredded and rebuilt my base and each component of it so many times its hard to call it only my third base)
silverchat.com slash ~silver slash factorio slash silver_base_three.zip

I thought I was doing okay, but it has some problems:

1) I just replaced all the belts with blue and in so doing I discovered that my smelters aren't smelting nearly as fast as I thought they would. None are starving for ore, I just thought they were big enough but they aren't? To see this, run a little SW of where the save is started and grab all blue belt out of the chest - the base should try to build a bunch more and after a minute, the iron lines will be very, very ragged.

2) I don't think my train signalling is right? Checking one T intersection will be just like checking all the others - they're all clones of each other. I don't get deadlocks ever, but I get weird stopping behavior - like trains stopping to let one go straight past it. My "working knowledge" on how to set up train signals is this: go to your intersection. On every *output* lane, put a regular signal. Right before every cross-over, put a chain signal. Right before every choice between two lanes, put a chain signal. ... and that's as far as I got. It seems to be foolproof but slower than optimal?

Anyway, I'm almost done with this particular save series.. but I wanted to learn all I can from this base first. Right now, the last thing on my "todo list" is beat back enough biters to find an oil patch worth mining from, and then I can try to find a good oil station setup (in Vanilla, so no tanker cars), but then I also have the aforementioned problems before I can move on to my "fourth" base (I guess I'll try in RSO next time)

While I'm posting this looking for help, I'm also kinda proud of parts of this base: I simply cannot make enough demand to drain, or even stress out, my green circuit lines - though, of course, I didn't design the basic 3:2 wire/circuit part of that; and I like my "master control" for how much stuff I let the factory produce (you start out next to it in the save - the constant combinators are dial-a-value and the base will make that much of whatever available in passive-providers + storage - it's hard to call it a combinator build, though, since all I do is subtract the 'demand' from the 'storage' and my smart inserters operate on "if negative" - nothing too bright or complicated). I'm also kinda sad with parts of my base (if I dial up more than a couple module-3s at a time, my red circuit lines drain entirely).

Base credits: -root inspired my train system and basic bus layout. anything clever in belts was designed by Mad Zuri. the mining-station loaders were designed by Mad Zuri. the solar panel stamps were designed by Mad Zuri (I just moved the middle accumulators so it looks like eyes). All the dumb stuff is my own attempts to ape better things I saw in videos.

---

edit:
problem 3) it still kinda looks like spaghetti in there, despite trying to do a "clean" production bus setup. Set aside science and the "little things" factory between iron and science (stuff which I would move the smart-factory portion if not for that annoying lake in the way), I'm still unhappy with some of the belting. Especially when I added the blue-belt sections to upgrade all my belts :(

On the other hand, one thing I'm happy with is: if you hold your hand over science and say "la la la, I'm not seeing you" you won't find any: mixed belts, inserting onto or taking off of underground-belt transitions, long-handed inserters. And I only use the "smart factory" for things I need scores of instead of thousands of (which is how I get by on only 700 logibos - I never even use all 700).

---

(I posted here instead of gameplay help because the topic seemed to broad for that group, and there were a couple things I don't mind "showing off" about my base)
Last edited by silverkitty23 on Sat May 21, 2016 5:12 am, edited 3 times in total.

Shokubai
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Re: Help Fix My Base?

Post by Shokubai »

Im missing your save file somewhere.

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Re: Help Fix My Base?

Post by Zaflis »

1) Not sure what you mean by "ragged". Blue belts are faster than the few (non-upgraded) factories you had pulling iron. So it's natural that you'll see iron move in a fashion of move, stop, move, stop... rapidly. I don't see that as an issue, all the belts were 100% full for what i could tell.

2) I guess some of those chain-signals could be replaced to normal rail signals. Chain signals are situational and causes trains to stop from further away.

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Re: Help Fix My Base?

Post by pieppiep »

Shokubai wrote:Im missing your save file somewhere.
silverkitty23 wrote:silverchat.com slash ~silver slash factorio slash silver_base_three.zip
Just replace the slash with a real / and you have the url.

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Re: Help Fix My Base?

Post by Shokubai »

2016-05-12 11_11_34-Factorio 0.12.33.png
2016-05-12 11_11_34-Factorio 0.12.33.png (723.16 KiB) Viewed 8265 times
This screen grab illustrates the issue and the solution I think. Your first signal after the chain is too far away. The chain signal will stay blocked out until the train crosses that next standard signal. Your train has to go a LONG way before it releases the track. I think if you place a standard signal right before your first chain signal and right after the exit in a path you will improve performance. Don't put chain signals at the exit...they just make the train go that much further for no reason. Only put them at the start of and in the middle of an area you don't wish a train to stop.

Also notice the opposite direction is red?

Your blocks are incomplete in the center. It's allowing the Chain signal to block the opposite path when a train enters. Make sure you add Chains to each section of track in the center in the traveling direction.
2016-05-12 11_29_29-Factorio 0.12.33.png
2016-05-12 11_29_29-Factorio 0.12.33.png (854.65 KiB) Viewed 8263 times
To better illustrate...Your signals provide a single block this big which only allows one train in at a time.
Untitled-2.png
Untitled-2.png (227.85 KiB) Viewed 8256 times
By adding a few more signals you make more blocks. Now more trains can access the track since there are more blocks to handle them.
Untitled-3.png
Untitled-3.png (192.45 KiB) Viewed 8256 times
*That red square should actually be two. ( A left and a right)

You will want to use something more like this for your Cross junction so you can break up the blocks. There is no room for signals in your current version.
Image
or the Roundabout style is functional although overused.
Last edited by Shokubai on Thu May 12, 2016 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Help Fix My Base?

Post by Shokubai »

The furnace issue is just about throughput. You have ( I think) 48 smelters in each section. That's only 24 smelters per blue belt. Full compression on one belt would require 72 iirc. With speed modules you could use half as many. I count you about 192 Furnaces short :) (or 48 short if you use speed modules. Frankly, you aren't using that much ore but it's a preference question really.

All in all, I love your base. Well done.

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Re: Help Fix My Base?

Post by silverkitty23 »

Thanks a lot, this is super helpful. The zone-pictures on the t-intersection are helping me understand betterish.

Yeah, the smelters ... I guess I just need 4 lanes instead of 2. I can only peak at 3.2 Fe/s but can easily demand in the neighborhood of 6. I intentionally left space for beacons, but I'm also thinking I want 2 unloading stations for iron ore... so I made this beast:
Big Station
Input Detail
which I'll probably use when I move my base up near the NE wall for more space (gotta clear all that silly iron and copper out of the way first, guessing I'm turning them into modules)...
and, yes, I thought it about really hard before deciding the side with the two loading bays (the left) is fine with "insufficient" signalling - it's not like anyone's going anywhere useful until there's an available unloader, anyway.

--

What saddens me is I "wanted" to have a T-intersection blue print that you just flip and re-stamp and it's a 4-way, with no signalling changes or anything. But we can't always get what we want :)

Last night, before anyone replied, I made this series of blueprints:
Roboport Rails
Which, in addition to being "rotate and stamp" blueprints that all rest on each other without changing (only adding), are also exactly logistics-tight if you overlap the end-most rails (i.e. no blindspots and no overlap in logistics coverage). I wouldn't want to run them everywhere, but around the base they'd let me connect to the solar array with fewer shenanigans... but I'm guessing they're poorly signaled.

------ EDIT ------

ha HA, BEHOLD the Roboport Rails Mk II
New Design Maybe
Probably broken, but less so than the version I made last night before your helpful pictures :)

Shokubai
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Re: Help Fix My Base?

Post by Shokubai »

That roboport T doesnt look bad but it needs Chain signals on the NE and NW leg that connect to that W->E lane at the top. Without them your putting the E->W lane in the same block again. You'll have the same issue.

silverkitty23
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Re: Help Fix My Base?

Post by silverkitty23 »

well, that didn't long... BEHOLD, the triumphant Complete Failure of Roboport Rails Mk II
Ooooopsie
Well, at least it's fuel efficient.

I shouldn't take up any more of your time, and thanks for your help. I have... some learning to does. I'm guessing my dream of logistics-tight no-thinking blueprints that can be stamped on top of each other without having to remove stuff is a pipe dream :/

BUT, if you're particularly bored: http://silverchat.com/~silver/factorio/deadlock.zip

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Re: Help Fix My Trains? (formerly: my Base)

Post by ratchetfreak »

My rule of thumb with chains is:

For every signal you do not want a train to wait at, change the signals that leads to that signal to chain signals.

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Re: Help Fix My Trains? (formerly: my Base)

Post by Shokubai »

Path.png
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If I am seeing this correctly then your trains want to go the direction indicated. Your issue is the blue ovals. Each of those ovals is basically the same layout of track. Two corners going opposite directions and a one way strait track that crosses them. What you are missing is a signal between the two corners on that piece of strait track. The problem here is I don't think there is room for that signal in that space. Without it each of those junctions is one block and will only ever allow one train at a time. Hence two trains each in an oval each unwilling to move to the others blue oval. That missing signal in that bottom right oval on the E->W track right at the middle of that train between the Westward and Eastward line would split that block in two and solve the issue.
Untitled-2.png
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silverkitty23
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Re: Help Fix My Trains? (formerly: my Base)

Post by silverkitty23 »

Fortunately, my Roboport Rails Mk II design seems recoverable - just move the outermost turns out a tile so one can fit in an extra chain signal in the spots you indicated. Maybe I wasn't just pipe-dreaming. Hooray. I think. I'm going to try my Very First Mod (I'm such a noob, I know. I'm sorry), and see if I can't get blueprint strings of them. That seems like a much better way to solicit opinions than save games :)

In my first post I wrote "My 'working knowledge' on how to set up train signals is this: go to your intersection. On every *output* lane, put a regular signal. Right before every cross-over, put a chain signal. Right before every choice between two lanes, put a chain signal."

So I guess I want to amend that to add: "As soon as possible after each cross-over or choice, put a signal (regular if you have a good distance until the next cross-over or choice, chain if not)."

---- edit ----

wow, mods are super easy: "drop in folder, enjoy."
Big Blueprint Strings
Remember that one of my goals with these blueprints is that they stamp over each other perfectly: which is to say, the T-junction, turn, and straight are all deletions from the 4-way, with no additions or things moved. You can go to any "segment" of straight track and turn it into a T or a 4-way with a single stamp and forget. Similarly, every turn can become a T or a 4-way. And, of course, every T can become a 4-way. In that sense, those last 3 blueprints are all redundant with the 4-way blueprint. If you have it, you can pare it down to the other three.

However, when placing next to each other, they don't go end to end, they overlap by one rail tile - because a rail blueprint has to be 52x52 to have the roboport centered, but the roboport only covers 50x50.

These blueprints don't actually feature the roboport itself, but it just goes 3 squares from the middle Big Poles, with a medium pole next to one of the Big Pole lights. I wouldn't want my entire railway to be logistics right, but I would want to be to set up so that it CAN be logistics tight anywhere I go.

--- edit 2 ---

Testing the Revised Mk II designs, not seeing any deadlocks yet: http://silverchat.com/~silver/factorio/3-84a.zip
Hooray!

Thanks for all your help!

--- edit 3 ---

And when I say "no deadlocks" what I mean is, well, there are some, of course. But I seem to have fixed those by replacing the "new" chain signals with regular signals. Test is still running, though. I'll revise the blueprint strings if they can go another hour or so.

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Re: Help Fix My Trains? (formerly: my Base) [fixed]

Post by Shokubai »

Grats!

silverkitty23
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Re: Help Fix My Trains? (formerly: my Base) [fixed]

Post by silverkitty23 »

Right after I did 'edit 3' I got another deadlock. I removed some chain signals and it resolved. I'm thinking my rules are still wrong:

1) On every *output* lane, put a regular signal.
2) Right before every cross-over, put a chain signal.
3) Right before every choice between two or more lanes, put a chain signal.
4) As soon as possible after each cross-over or choice, put a signal (regular if you have a good distance until the next cross-over or choice, chain if not)

rule 3 is suspect to me.

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Re: Help Fix My Trains? (formerly: my Base) [fixed]

Post by Shokubai »

silverkitty23 wrote:Right after I did 'edit 3' I got another deadlock. I removed some chain signals and it resolved. I'm thinking my rules are still wrong:

1) On every *output* lane, put a regular signal.
2) Right before every cross-over, put a chain signal.
3) Right before every choice between two or more lanes, put a chain signal.
4) As soon as possible after each cross-over or choice, put a signal (regular if you have a good distance until the next cross-over or choice, chain if not)

rule 3 is suspect to me.
1) looks good
2) looks good. I might add...If the cross over crosses multiple lanes (ideally) you want a chain signal before each lane being crossed.
3) looks good in general but may not be necessary if you want the train to move off the main line to another waiting area next before crossing a junction.
4) If an area is "ok to stop" then you want a regular signal at the front and a chain or regular at the end of that area depending on wether the path forward is blockable or not.. If the area is not "ok to stop" then continue using chains through the junction. Then see #1

An easier way to think about this may be like this...
C=Chain Signal R=Regular Signal
Create a stopping zone
C - R * R Train stops in * if 2nd R is Red
C - R * C -R/C Train stops at * only if the next C is Red due to R/C (Chain or Regular)
If there is NO STOPPING IN THE JUNCTION then you will simply have Chain entering, Chains in the middle, Regular after exit.

A curve ball to think about is that chain signals will make the WHOLE chain red so you could lock up a long section of track if there are not places available for stops along the way. This has more to do with overall planning and train length.

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Re: Help Fix My Trains? (formerly: my Base) [fixed]

Post by Shokubai »

p.s. This whole conversation is the reason that I just build these.
Roundabouts.png
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silverkitty23
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Re: Help Fix My Trains? (formerly: my Base) [fixed]

Post by silverkitty23 »

or, as I would write it:
Roboroundabout
but then to be consistent with my doctrine, I'd have to do this:
Consequences
and, of course, I'd have to delete things when I convert a straight to a turn :(

or I could take leave of my senses and declare this to be my "straight" segment:
Really Dumb Idea
ha ha hahahahahahahahahaha

no

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Re: Help Fix My Trains? (formerly: my Base) [fixed]

Post by Shokubai »

lol 1st world problems

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Re: Help Fix My Trains? (formerly: my Base) [fixed]

Post by silverkitty23 »

My cake, I can haz it and eat it, too!

I mean, the curvy rail thing was working okay, but it was soooo ugly in the T-junction and turns. And it wasn't signaled perfectly, just closely. And there were caveats to using it like having to overlap the last rail segment, and remove signals between junctions. But no more.

All I had to do was give up a different assumption, and suddenly everything fell into place.

Tell me these signals are right and I'm sooo done fiddling(*)
Signaling Detail
On the assumption the signals are right:

BEHOLD, Roboport Rails Mark III - 4 blueprints that place end-to-end, are rotationally symmetric, and overlap without edits
Happiness Achieved
Blueprints With Roboports
Blueprints Without Roboports
--- edit ---

(*) where by "done fiddling" I mean of course...
Hmmmmmmmmmmm
(did I mention that I'm insane?)

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Re: Help Fix My Trains? (formerly: my Base) [fixed]

Post by silverkitty23 »

My new iron setup. I dunno if it'll work, but at least it looks intimidating.

Someone asked someone else "why are all your trains sitting in stackers when they could be unloading?"
So this is my attempt to respond to that question (which wasn't directed at me). This set-up really speaks to why I should consider logibo based unloading and a smart furnace instead of doing everything on belts.
Iron Unload and Smelt
Yes, I left room to put bacon beside those smelting lanes, in case I want it. Though then the lines could be shortened (not sure by how much, though) because right now they should totally fill a blue belt, so speeding them up would mean a bunch of idle smelters :/

Oh, yeah, I finished my "roboport rails" blueprints for 2-lanes-each-way, too - still rotationally symmetric, place-on-top of each other, and tile out with correct roboport placement (well, except for that 8-tine unloading segment, which is the same length as a regular straight-section, but doesn't place over it :/)

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