[0.15.*] Feedback topic

[orzelek]

New version of RSO for 0.15 is up - please post feedback here.
For bugs please create new topics.

Also with new settings system I'm looking for feedback about which of config settings would be good to present there. I don't want to add all of them there - there are quite a few of them.

Edit: Attached mod for a while till mod portal recovers.

[CaptainHook]

Seems to work fine for me.
I would really appreciate to add and option to exclude oil and uranium from the starting area to promote the use of trains.
And an option to use vanilla biter spawning.

[orzelek]

Seems to work fine for me.
I would really appreciate to add and option to exclude oil and uranium from the starting area to promote the use of trains.
And an option to use vanilla biter spawning.

I'm trying to keep resources that game spawns in start area also present in it. Usually in small quantities - can reduce uranium a bit more oil is already only 2 wells. And with new rebalance of techs you will need oil.

Option to switch biter spawning to vanilla is currently in config - I'll think about making a setting out of it. Not sure when I get to playing with new setting systems - might be a week or two.

[silentdeth]

The mod portal seems to be down, is there a place to manually download this?

[orzelek]

Attached it to top post for now.

[wlfbck]

Oil needs to be upped in the starting area. I don't know how/if RSO depends on the values on the base game for the starting area, but in our multiplayer game there was basically no progress for 2 hours since red chips and thus blue science depends on oil, and loads of it. One cycle of the first oil processing takes 100 crude, and the starting oi wells generate maybe 0.4-0.7crude per cycle (they are at roughly 6-8% yield). The base game wells close to the starting area are 225% without RSO.

disregard, was probably an error on my part. Starting oil now at 9.0crude/s, that might still be a little low though.

[TexanMD]

I did some exploring in sandbox mode for the Rail world map settings with and without RSO.

My initial impressions are that Uranium and Oil are probably "broken" and Biters seem too low compared to vanilla.

For Uranium, Vanilla patches scale up much slower than the other patches. At approximately the same distance from spawn RSO gives me patches of Uranium with ~7M ore. Vanilla is ~1.5M ore.

For Oil, they tweaked this for 15 specifically which probably accounts for the differences, but RSO is spawning much less oil in the world than Vanilla. Vanilla I got oil fields that were massive. RSO the best I found was 7-8 wells.

For Biters, they seem fairly few and far between, but i know that's one of the goals for RSO. But compared to without RSO it seemed like it might be taking it down too far. That could also be personal preference though.

[orzelek]

Thanks for testing.

Biters can be changed back to vanilla - I might think about making thema bit more attracted to resource patches then now.
The vanilla/RSO biter spawning will be one of options for settings I think.

It is possible that Uranium has different distance scaling factor - there is no support for something like that in RSO now and I might need to add it if difference is that severe. Oil is lower by design - amount of oil vanilla drops is huge (like few thousand % right next to start). I have no feel of current oil needs but if they are big I might add more oil wells. I still need to see how that minimum oil %-age from well increase works and if it's triggered by RSO properly.

Edit: It's actually strange with Uranium - base game distance multiplier for it is actually bigger then other ores. Might have been on low side for base and high roll for RSO. Will need to collect more data before tweaking stuff

[TexanMD]

Yeah, in the end oil might be ok because of the Coal liquification allowing you to convert coal -> heavy oil, once you have a relatively small amount of oil, in theory you can never pump again and get everything you need via coal.

[TexanMD]

Went and did some more comparisons with Uranium and Oil. Just wanted to give you more info. If you want i can add some screenshots of the biters on the map.

I went 11k to the left from spawn and found uranium at nearly the same place with and without RSO.

With RSO, I found 2 uranium patches within ~1000 of each other one had 24M ore the other had 22M ore.
Without RSO, I found 3 uranium patches within 500 of each other. They had 2.1M ore, 1.1M ore and 408K ore. The 408K patch had a pond in the middle of it. By size on the map I'm guessing it'd be > 1M ore if there wasn't water.

Oil overall seemed to be fairly balanced as I found more of it. Initially I think I was getting really good rolls without RSO and terrible rolls with RSO. At 10000 out from spawn RSO seems to provide better oil patches but not a significantly different count with further exploration.

As a comparison for the other ores, with RSO at 11k out I was finding ore patches that were ~100M ore, without it was ~30M ore. It looked like for Iron/Copper RSO tended to be 3x vs vanilla at 10000 from spawn, but Uranium is making patches ~10x vanilla at 10000 from spawn.


I'm not really sure any of it needs to be changed. Uranium seems like it might be a little high, but I'm not sure its really an issue.

[Trepidati0n]

TexanMD,

How were you setting your "settings" in the menu while using RSO? Where you selecting railworld then launching RSO or just keeping defaults? All I know is I ran a bunch of non-modded railword settings and was not happy with the results (50 attempts, too much stuff still too close, oil was a stupid amount). However, railworld setting + RSO seemed a bit over punishing. Dunno. Trying to get a handle on this for a restart.

[TexanMD]

So I installed RSO, then made a new map and the only change I made was selecting Rail-World.


But I just noticed 15.2 is up and they specifically mention tweaking spawns on Railworld..... so I guess I'll be testing it again tomorrow.

[Trepidati0n]

Thanks Tex. That is what I did too. The oil does feel a "bit weak' with the RSO mod but the liquification might be a very solid substitute. All i know is that the radar doesn't show any resources within scan range (which I like). The oil setting in the default railworld is bonkers....you practically drown in the stuff.

[orzelek]

Ohh so you used rail world... that would change things.
RSO is aware of map settings and reads them also. Frequency works a bit differently then vanilla but other settings work as described. That would explain the big patches too - map settings make them big and rich then.

I did intentionally go over the vanilla scaling - not sure whats the break even distance but far out RSO should beat vanilla by big marigin (it's exponential increase on RSO vs linear on vanilla I think).

[Trepidati0n]

Not sure if this is relevant or not...but I've never used RSO with "defaults" in game menu. I've always used them in some sort of variant. Part of the reason is I feel the default doesn't favor large trains.

But beyond that, i'm not sure. The railworld setting feels like what I would pick for a railworld setting and then RSO would give me patches that are aligned with the goal. Either way, i'll eventually settle on something. All I know is your generation pattern method is AMAZING. I can't thank you enough for your work.

I'll try a few default worlds with the settings I used to use and "see what happens".

EDIT: Here is a string that was the previous 0.15 SIM series. This was "tweaked up" beyond typical RSO to maintain a very long term high resource usage game (e.g. 200k total plates/minute not unusual). When I rescanned in 0.15, the map has changed but the overall resource pattern is good...BUT OIL. Even with oil maxed it doesn't feel "maxed". I feel like those settings I should be seeing 10k% patches at the 2k from spawn range instead of ~1k% Coal also feels a "little light" considering the new 0.15 recipes and liquifaction. However, I don't think it needs much of a tweak. Regardless, this map and these settings would probably be a 200-400 hour map (e.g. 1-2 billion base ore)

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[Grokken]

I've tried generating a bunch of maps, and it seems that oil is EXTREMELY limited, especially early on. I looked a bit at the config file, and noticed this:

spawns_per_region={min=1, max=1}
size={min=1, max=3}

values for .14 is

spawns_per_region={min=1, max=2}
size={min=2, max=5}

Not only is the amount of patches reduced from 2-5 to 1-3, there's also no chance of having 2 spawns near each other. Before you would find some areas with 4-10 patches, and now its 1-3.
If you are unlucky it can take a long time before you even find an area with more than 1 oil patch.

I played around with the oil config a bit, and ended up with this:

config["crude-oil"] = {
type="resource-liquid",
minimum_amount=200000,
allotment=70,
spawns_per_region={min=1, max=1},
richness={min=200000, max=600000}, -- richness per resource spawn
size={min=3, max=8},

starting={richness=400000, size=2, probability=1},

multi_resource_chance=0.20,
multi_resource={
["coal"] = 4,
["uranium-ore"] = 1,
}

This spawns a similar amount of oil patches as 0.14, with twice the richness(same yield%, but lasts twice as long). I will probably be using these settings for my next world unless it gets changed.

In lategame there is now mining productivity which will reduce the amount of ore outposts needed, so i think it's reasonable to increase the amount of oil as well.

[orzelek]

Oil reduction was intentional.. but might be to harsh. I did not anticipate all the new techs.
I don't want to up richness for now until I get a feel how new dynamic minimum value works. Values will get into very high %-ages already.

I will up amount of wells to previous settings for now and see where it will go from there.

As for using rail world preset... for certain reasons it messes up frequency since it makes uranium/oil low and others very low which means for RSO that relative presence of uranium and crude oil will increase vs other ores.

[Trepidati0n]

Note: this is on context to the map string above

Tried the same string as above and the oil changes are definitely obvious but nothing obnoxious. Just note i have the oil settings set "really high" (very high, very big, very good). I found about 9 patches per 2k * 2k quadrant with the most outer ones being around 1000%-4000% but more towards 1000%. This means if I tapped it out I would be looking @ 10k% for all well depleted or 100 units/sec or 6000/minute. It still look like around 10k/crude per rocket. This means I would still have to either a) beacon it up or b) coal liqification. So, in that regards...I think you have hit the nail on the head.

Did you change the biter settings? Those feel definitely more plentiful but nothing crazy either.

Uranium with my settings (normal, med, regular) was 2.5-4 million ore per quadrant with 2-4 patches per quadrant for about 10 million total. if we assume that each piece of ore is ~0.8 GJ (e.g. 1/3 * 300%). so a base running @ 1GW would consume ~1.25 ore/sec or lets call it 10 ore/sec for a 10GW base (easy math). That puts it in the range of 300-400 hours at full power...seems like enough there too.

Iron/copper ratios look "good" and coal I think is fine too.

i think i might call this version a "win" IMO.

[Trepidati0n]

Tweaked it a bit more. After a few more setting changes and a few different maps, I like this gen. Nothing feels excessive if you are looking at a 400+ map. Decent amount of water to keep it interesting but also a "desert" start to make tree clearing less annoying. Settings are based upon the 0.15 "sim series" done prior to the 0.15 release.

http://imgur.com/a/3qweT

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If you want to scan and look for yourself use the following command.

/c game.forces.player.chart(game.player.surface, {lefttop = {x = -2048, y = -2048}, rightbottom = {x = 2048, y = 2048}})

[Adventurer]

All I want is for trees to not spawn on top of resources.