Suggestion to change Whitelist/Blacklist terms

Ideas, that are too old (too much things changed) or won't be implemented cause of some reasons or if there are obvious better suggestions.
quinnjn
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:56 am
Contact:

Suggestion to change Whitelist/Blacklist terms

Post by quinnjn »

The filter inserter has the language "Whitelist" for objects it should pick up, and "Backlist" for objects it should avoid. These terms are generally frowned upon. I think this is a good reason on its own to change the terms but I do have a couple more thoughts on them.

These terms seem to have an origin in software development, specifically networking more than general use. I'm sure folks who don't understand the terms figure it out but there could be other terms that make sense here. There is another argument that the UI doesn't really show this as a list, but more of a grouping.

I think it would be better to change the language. My suggestion is to change it to Allow/Deny, but there are many other choices!

Qon
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1475
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2016 6:27 am
Contact:

Re: Suggestion to change Whitelist/Blacklist terms

Post by Qon »

quinnjn wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 8:58 pm
The filter inserter has the language "Whitelist" for objects it should pick up, and "Backlist" for objects it should avoid. These terms are generally frowned upon. I think this is a good reason on its own to change the terms but I do have a couple more thoughts on them.
I disagree. I don't find find these terms offensive and do not frown upon them. Linking to a google search does not prove your point. You can find people agreeing with the most ridiculous ideas if you search for them. Doesn't mean that they form consensus, they are just a vocal minority that are extremists that you went out of your way to find.
quinnjn wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 8:58 pm
These terms seem to have an origin in software development, specifically networking more than general use. I'm sure folks who don't understand the terms figure it out but there could be other terms that make sense here. There is another argument that the UI doesn't really show this as a list, but more of a grouping.
It goes back much further than that. You would know that if you read the first links on the google search you linked. :roll:
quinnjn wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 8:58 pm
I think it would be better to change the language. My suggestion is to change it to Allow/Deny, but there are many other choices!
It's the same as for deconstruction planner. But you can't replace it with the same words for the planner.
I'm not sure which one is supposed to replace whitelist and which one is supposed to replace blacklist there. That's how bad your new terms would fit. Blacklist and whitelist are easy to understand because of their general nature that doesn't evoke any specifics of the actions that will be taken but instead of how a filter will categorise things under consideration.

That's an awful suggestion with misguided reasoning.

I vehemently disagree.

Koub
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 5928
Joined: Fri May 30, 2014 8:54 am
Contact:

Re: Suggestion to change Whitelist/Blacklist terms

Post by Koub »

This is pure nonsense. The opposition between white as good/on the side of the light and black as bad/on the side of the darkness precedes any offensive or racist usage SJW may find in them a posteriori.
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

Darinth
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 321
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:17 pm
Contact:

Re: Suggestion to change Whitelist/Blacklist terms

Post by Darinth »

I can see the point you're trying to make. Honestly, I see no reason outside of minimal 'time to implement' to make the choice, but even I'm hardpressed to agree that these 'terms are generally frowned upon', as a large number of the articles in your own google search say that these are terms that nobody cares about.

The thing that your google search does make good, consistent point of is that the use of the terms whitelist and blacklist, while not inherently racist, does reinforce a negativity towards 'blackness' and that even if the term isn't related to race it still has indirect impact on issues of race. So... yeah I'll support this. To anybody out there who looks at this and goes 'OMG SJWs are ruining everything!!1!' they've got a lot of points that are valid. And yes, change sucks. Being told that things we've done all of our lives aren't good and that we should stop doing them sucks, but that doesn't mean that they're wrong.

Qon
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1475
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2016 6:27 am
Contact:

Re: Suggestion to change Whitelist/Blacklist terms

Post by Qon »

Darinth wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 12:29 pm
I can see the point you're trying to make. Honestly, I see no reason outside of minimal 'time to implement' to make the choice, but even I'm hardpressed to agree that these 'terms are generally frowned upon', as a large number of the articles in your own google search say that these are terms that nobody cares about.

The thing that your google search does make good, consistent point of is that the use of the terms whitelist and blacklist, while not inherently racist, does reinforce a negativity towards 'blackness' and that even if the term isn't related to race it still has indirect impact on issues of race. So... yeah I'll support this. To anybody out there who looks at this and goes 'OMG SJWs are ruining everything!!1!' they've got a lot of points that are valid. And yes, change sucks. Being told that things we've done all of our lives aren't good and that we should stop doing them sucks, but that doesn't mean that they're wrong.
Darkness is the absence of light. Negating white gives you black. A 'negative' is the inverse of a photograph that depicts an image with a positive amount of light.
Saying that black is connected to negativity is not saying that black is 'bad'. And it is definitely not saying anything about any race that happens to use a 'colour' as shorthand. It's not called the brown skin list and the light skin list...
Positive and negative are not synonyms with a moral good or a moral bad. Saying something is 'positive' doesn't mean it is good. When it's used that way it's because it's a contraction of 'positive moral value'. The moral act isn't actually positive, it has a ('numerical') value that is positive. Positive is a property of numbers. If you are getting tested for a disease you want a negative result (no disease found), because that has positive value for you (it's good).

DaleStan
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 277
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:40 am
Contact:

Re: Suggestion to change Whitelist/Blacklist terms

Post by DaleStan »

Qon wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 1:14 am
I don't find find these terms offensive and do not frown upon them.
I don't find them offensive either, but my experiences and reactions apply only to me. Other people's reactions are allowed (and even expected) to differ from mine. It's incredibly arrogant to tell someone that their reactions to certain stimuli are invalid, just because they differ from mine. (The actions that stem from those reactions may be invalid, but the reactions themselves are not.)

So, I am allowed to say "I don't find these terms offensive", but I am not allowed to say "Because I don't find these terms offensive, it is categorically impossible for anyone else to find them offensive."
Qon wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 1:14 am
You can find people agreeing with the most ridiculous ideas if you search for them.
This is is neither a ridiculous nor fringe idea. The JMLA, a peer-reviewed professional journal, recently published an article containing the following sentence: "The racism in such “black is bad, white is good” metaphors is inappropriate and needs to cease."
I'm not making a good/bad judgement on coal vs iron ore in Factorio, but I am making a wanted/unwanted judgement, which isn't any better.
Qon wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 1:14 am
quinnjn wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 8:58 pm
I think it would be better to change the language. My suggestion is to change it to Allow/Deny, but there are many other choices!
It's the same as for deconstruction planner. But you can't replace it with the same words for the planner.
Good point. If they are going to be replaced, all instances must be replaced, not just some of them. I don't think it has to be the same word/phrase pair in both places, but it certainly would be nice if the they were the same.
Koub wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 5:55 am
This is pure nonsense. The opposition between white as good/on the side of the light and black as bad/on the side of the darkness ...
... is problematic, as it encourages white people (such as myself) to unconsciously think of themselves as good and black people as bad. (This may be one of the reasons the phrase "black people" is falling out of favor.)
Breaking news: Language changes. Words gain and lose both connotations and denotations over time. An innocuous origin may be linguistically interesting, but it is neither necessary nor sufficient as a defense of current meanings and implications.


As alternative language, I propose "Collect" or "Pick up" on one side and "Leave" on the other; this works unambiguously for both filter inserters and deconstruction planners.

I support this change.

User avatar
steinio
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 2506
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 4:19 pm
Contact:

Re: Suggestion to change Whitelist/Blacklist terms

Post by steinio »

OMG i can't believe this topic even exists.

What's next?

Vegans complaining about biter kills?
Environmentalists complaining about pollution?
Cyclists complaining about the car.
Workers complaining about robots.
Image
Transport Belt Repair Man

View unread Posts

DaleStan
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 277
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:40 am
Contact:

Re: Suggestion to change Whitelist/Blacklist terms

Post by DaleStan »

Indeed. What's next?

Reductio-ad-absurdum arguments?

Qon
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1475
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2016 6:27 am
Contact:

Re: Suggestion to change Whitelist/Blacklist terms

Post by Qon »

DaleStan wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 2:46 pm
Qon wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 1:14 am
I don't find find these terms offensive and do not frown upon them.
I don't find them offensive either, but my experiences and reactions apply only to me. Other people's reactions are allowed (and even expected) to differ from mine. It's incredibly arrogant to tell someone that their reactions to certain stimuli are invalid, just because they differ from mine. (The actions that stem from those reactions may be invalid, but the reactions themselves are not.)

So, I am allowed to say "I don't find these terms offensive", but I am not allowed to say "Because I don't find these terms offensive, it is categorically impossible for anyone else to find them offensive."
Did you come here to tell me that I'm allowed to say what I said? But I don't need your permission...
DaleStan wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 2:46 pm
Qon wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 1:14 am
You can find people agreeing with the most ridiculous ideas if you search for them.
This is is neither a ridiculous nor fringe idea. The JMLA, a peer-reviewed professional journal, recently published an article containing the following sentence: "The racism in such “black is bad, white is good” metaphors is inappropriate and needs to cease."
Blacklisting isn't 'bad'. It's filtering. For a deconstruction planner, it just means that the object is not touched by the planner. Whitelisted objects are affected by the planner and thus removed by it.

Also, I'm not American and neither is Factorio. Not everyone is American. It isn't just Americans that are speaking English. Just because Americans get nervous when they hear the names of colours doesn't mean the rest of the world has to be forced into their culture.

SkiCarver
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 166
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:36 am
Contact:

Re: Suggestion to change Whitelist/Blacklist terms

Post by SkiCarver »

Please do not give in to the SJW "cry-bully" tactics. There is nothing wrong with the terms whitelist or blacklist .... these are terms in common use in the english language outside of the computer world.

That a small group are soooo fixated on race that they see race EVERYWHERE is a pathology ... they need help to see past race and do not need us pandering to their delusions. There is no association between these words and race, it is ridiculous. And to the SJWs ... we will never get past the problem of racism if you try to find racism where it does not exist. There are real problems in the world .... this is not one of them.

Koub
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 5928
Joined: Fri May 30, 2014 8:54 am
Contact:

Re: Suggestion to change Whitelist/Blacklist terms

Post by Koub »

I gave my opinion as a member of the community earlier on, now it's the moderator-me speaking. I'm keeping a close eye on this thread, as it has a high troll/derail/flamewar potential.
I really don't like using my moderation privileges to hack and slash through posts, so please don't get into that slippery slope : keep the discussion as it has been until now, and don't feed the trolls.
Thanks for your comprehension
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

ahydra447
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:05 am
Contact:

Re: Suggestion to change Whitelist/Blacklist terms

Post by ahydra447 »

Discussions of the language connotations aside, I legitimately do find the deconstruction planner confusing. Does whitelist = things that will be left on the ground, or things that the planner is allowed to touch? I would consider something like "Deconstruct" and "Ignore" (similar on filter inserter could be "Pick up" and "Ignore"). If this appears to cause confusion with turning the entire thing on and off, then put a "Filter mode" label above.

ahydra

Darinth
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 321
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:17 pm
Contact:

Re: Suggestion to change Whitelist/Blacklist terms

Post by Darinth »

Qon wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 2:12 pm
Darkness is the absence of light. Negating white gives you black. A 'negative' is the inverse of a photograph that depicts an image with a positive amount of light.
Saying that black is connected to negativity is not saying that black is 'bad'.
That's not a valid argument here. We're not talking about the specific field of photography, where negatives of a photo look weird but are neither good nor bad. We're talking more generally, where negativity is well understood to be bad. I can in point of fact find a field somewhere that something that is generally considered terrible is used as a very specific technical term, and is neither good nor bad, it simply 'is'.
Qon wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 2:12 pm
And it is definitely not saying anything about any race that happens to use a 'colour' as shorthand. It's not called the brown skin list and the light skin list...
And we also don't call dark skinned people brown people or light skinned people light people, they're commonly referred to as black people and white people, which is why connotations relating black and white to negative and positive can be problematic.
Qon wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 2:12 pm
Positive and negative are not synonyms with a moral good or a moral bad. Saying something is 'positive' doesn't mean it is good. When it's used that way it's because it's a contraction of 'positive moral value'. The moral act isn't actually positive, it has a ('numerical') value that is positive. Positive is a property of numbers. If you are getting tested for a disease you want a negative result (no disease found), because that has positive value for you (it's good).
Once again, to be real blunt, no. And you already alluded to the reasoning yourself. You are technically correct that positive isn't always good and negative isn't always bad, but in general use referring to something as positive means it's good. It's not just related to 'positive moral values', if I say that 'Helping John Doe move would be a really positive thing', nobody isn't going to misunderstand that statement. Positive in general use, is related to 'goodness'.

Similarly, we do in fact have a problem within our society of relating whiteness to good and blackness to bad. We often do it with absolutely zero relation to race, but that doesn't mean that the associations we generate don't accidentally spill over to cause a problem. I don't believe that this is any massive deal... but it's also what I'd expect to be a very simple & minor change, probably one that would only actually effect the localization files (those are probably all localized strings). There's really nothing to be lost by removing references to colors that are associated with skin colors. So why not?

Qon
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1475
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2016 6:27 am
Contact:

Re: Suggestion to change Whitelist/Blacklist terms

Post by Qon »

The connection between positive and good is the same connection as between white and good. White IS good and black IS bad just as much/little as positive/negative means good/bad. But it can also be the opposite for both. You don't have to connect it to race. And you certainly don't have to force non-north Americans to celebrate your taboo culture.

Theikkru
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 258
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:18 pm
Contact:

Re: Suggestion to change Whitelist/Blacklist terms

Post by Theikkru »

+1 to the "racist connotations argument is hogwash" camp. Let me point out that in Asian culture the exact opposite is true, with white being associated with lying, deceit, and malevolence, while black reflects honesty and integrity. Nonetheless, in neither culture do people get confused about the overloading of these connotations, because normal people understand that they are literary in nature, and contingent upon CONTEXT.
The words "whitelist" and "blacklist" are already widely used in the computer sciences, in the most strictly technical sense, and if anything, such use should help dissolve associations with race (or anything else non-technical). I would turn the "languages change" argument right back around and point out that by that token, outdated and inappropriate connotations should be eroded through counterexample and gradual disassociation, rather than enshrined in taboo.

On the other hand, I would actually agree with a change to the terms "whitelist" and "blacklist" here in Factorio, but only because, as others have mentioned, it's confusing, especially in the case of the deconstruction planner. I suggest that "select" and "ignore" are the most suitable for all the current use cases.

quinnjn
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:56 am
Contact:

Re: Suggestion to change Whitelist/Blacklist terms

Post by quinnjn »

I'm sorry this blew up the way it did. I didn't intend for this suggestion to get this much feedback.

To be honest, I was playing the game and setting a filter inserter and saw Whitelist/Blacklist and thought the terms aren't clear, and there could be better terms for the filter such as Allow/Deny. I didn't write the suggestion for the purpose of seeking social justice. I mentioned that Whitelist/Blacklist was generally frowned upon and didn't mention any more of that topic.

The goal of the suggestion was to make the filter terms clearer.

I often don't communicate on publicly because I struggle to get past negativity, because I'm not a confrontational person. It is my fault for starting this topic.

Koub
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 5928
Joined: Fri May 30, 2014 8:54 am
Contact:

Re: Suggestion to change Whitelist/Blacklist terms

Post by Koub »

The irony in all this is that wanting to make the wording clearer was a perfectly valid reason to ask for this change, while invoking the excuse of those terms being contrevorsial ended up hurting your argument instead of helping it.

Now all the people I know of do understand the whitelist/blacklist terminology (except maybe my oldest relatives), and I'm sure they wouldn't be puzzled by them, so I can't say how much this change would be needed for just comprehension's sake. I'll let people who have issues understanding which does what express themselves.
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

moertschi
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:01 pm
Contact:

Rename racially-charged terms "blacklist" and "whitelist" - Deconstruction Planner Filter

Post by moertschi »

I stumbled across a local newspaper article today that surprised me as a programmer about myself. I have never thought whether these terms discriminate against other people. Also for me, "master-slave" was always just a programming paradigm, never more, but for other people it means something else and it should be for me too.

Other programmer communities change their code and the UI of their programs, I would be very happy if this gets considered.

Please also take a look at the translations in other languages whether there are similar constellations.

BR moertschi

Links to other programming communities:

https://chromium.googlesource.com/chrom ... ly-neutral
https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/is ... ?id=842296

https://bugs.python.org/issue34605

Koub
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 5928
Joined: Fri May 30, 2014 8:54 am
Contact:

Re: Suggestion to change Whitelist/Blacklist terms

Post by Koub »

[Koub] Merged into the existing thread with the same suggestion.
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

valneq
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 648
Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:43 am
Contact:

Re: Suggestion to change Whitelist/Blacklist terms

Post by valneq »

I agree with changing these terms in game.

Manily for comprehensibility. The first time I tried to filter a deconstruction planner, I needed to think hard whether I wanted to "whitelist" or "blacklist". I needed to check the tooltip to figure out what I wanted.

While this does work, it would be easier to understand the meaning if the wording was different for upgrade and decon planners.
I think that "deconstruct" vs. "ignore" for decon planners is more intuitive.
Similarly, "upgrade" vs. "ignore" for upgrade planners.
[edit]: Forgot that upgrade planners are always set to "whitelist". So forget that suggestion.[/edit]

If implementing different wording for decon and upgrade planners is not desirable, maybe use
"manipulate" vs. "ignore"
The latter is also the most intuitive wording for filter inserters, I would say.
Last edited by valneq on Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

Locked

Return to “Outdated/Not implemented”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users