Increase Big Electric Pole Wire Reach to 32 to = Chunk Size

Ideas, that are too old (too much things changed) or won't be implemented cause of some reasons or if there are obvious better suggestions.

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Big Electric Poles wire reach from 30 to 32 (1 chunk)

Post by Vizzy »

The reason why I'd like to see Big Electric Poles wire reach extended from 30 to 32 is so that they are equal to 1 chunk width and tie in nicer with the built in tile-grid (the grid you can see when paused or through f4).

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This would allow easier planning of bases as well as being able to have some nice rail blueprints that always stick to the thick tile-grid.

I know its a really easy mod to change the wire length, I've made my own. I just think it would benefit the whole community to have this change.


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Re: Big Electric Poles wire reach from 30 to 32 (1 chunk)

Post by steinio »

+1
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Increase Big Electric Pole Wire Reach to 32 to = Chunk Size

Post by againey »

The current wire reach for the big electric pole is 30 tiles. I like to design my blueprints and layouts to match the 32x32 chunk size, because the grid visible when paused is a great layout tool. When combined with big electric poles, for example with blueprints for rail, this requires doubling up on the poles so that they repeat once every 16 tiles. It would be significantly more convenient if their wire reach increased by 2, from 30 to 32. This is a small enough change that it would have a negligible impact on balance, and it wouldn't break existing factories (as long as new 31/32-length connections aren't created during a version upgrade), but with substantial usability improvements for design styles which are common due to the built-in 32-tile bias.

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Re: Increase Big Electric Pole Wire Reach to 32 to = Chunk Size

Post by ssilk »

Just make a mod. This is about 10-20 lines of code. :)
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Re: Big Electric Poles wire reach from 30 to 32 (1 chunk)

Post by tecxx »

+1 ... should be default

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Re: Increase Big Electric Pole Wire Reach to 32 to = Chunk Size

Post by Koub »

[Koub] Merged into older topic with same suggestion.
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

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Re: Increase Big Electric Pole Wire Reach to 32 to = Chunk Size

Post by Zaflis »

Should be default definitely! We want to start making and sharing blueprints with them, so if they require mod they are no longer compatible with vanilla.

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Re: Increase Big Electric Pole Wire Reach to 32 to = Chunk Size

Post by PyroFire »

ssilk wrote:
Sun May 07, 2017 2:29 pm
Just make a mod. This is about 10-20 lines of code. :)
I think you mean one line.

data.raw["electric-pole"]["big-electric-pole"].wire_reach=32

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Re: Increase Big Electric Pole Wire Reach to 32 to = Chunk Size

Post by Zaflis »

PyroFire wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:16 am
I think you mean one line.
C'mon it was never about wether it's possible with mods.
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/GJBigPolesAlign
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/chunk-sized-roboports

Most people share their blueprints only if they are vanilla compatible. Quite a lot of rail blueprints are aligned to big powerpoles, and if they also use 32 wire distance mods they break the consistency. Chunk alignment is important for clean builds around radar coverage and there's simply no valid argument to be made against just upping it 2 tiles from 30.

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Re: Increase Big Electric Pole Wire Reach to 32 to = Chunk Size

Post by Rseding91 »

There's no reason to increase the wire reach just because the chunk size is 32. It has no gameplay advantage of disadvantage to be 32 vs 30.

If nobody ever told you chunk size was 32x32 then you wouldn't even know it was a thing.

Just ignore the fact chunks exist and build as you want. It doesn't change anything.
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Re: Increase Big Electric Pole Wire Reach to 32 to = Chunk Size

Post by 5thHorseman »

Rseding91 wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:25 am
If nobody ever told you chunk size was 32x32 then you wouldn't even know it was a thing.
But you'd wonder why radar coverage was so blocky.
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Re: Increase Big Electric Pole Wire Reach to 32 to = Chunk Size

Post by Zaflis »

Rseding91 wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:25 am
There's no reason to increase the wire reach just because the chunk size is 32. It has no gameplay advantage of disadvantage to be 32 vs 30.

If nobody ever told you chunk size was 32x32 then you wouldn't even know it was a thing.

Just ignore the fact chunks exist and build as you want. It doesn't change anything.
Maybe you can ignore it, players can't. There's new reddit posts appearing every now and then, even 2 in the past 2 weeks. It's partly because cityblock railways are becoming a common thing in megabasing, and placement of radars really matters. You don't want gaps, and if there is reveal area overlap it's not optimal for power consumption. So radars should be in the corners and that's really measured by chunks. There is even a mod to measure it conveniently, without needing to show the far more distracting F4 grid
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/ChunkyChunks

Currently the workaround i have to use to account for 30 length poles is by placing them less than 30 length so that they connect in the middle of radar chunks. Now the only way to know if i'm placing power pole right is with blueprint, the wire length i trusted so much is not so trusty anymore!

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Re: Increase Big Electric Pole Wire Reach to 32 to = Chunk Size

Post by PyroFire »

5thHorseman wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:57 am
But you'd wonder why radar coverage was so blocky.
Personally, i find symmetrical factories ugly.

Zaflis wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:17 am
Currently the workaround i have to use to account for 30 length poles is by placing them less than 30 length so that they connect in the middle of radar chunks. Now the only way to know if i'm placing power pole right is with blueprint, the wire length i trusted so much is not so trusty anymore!
Fact is you're asking for something to be changed to suit your playstyle.
Nothing wrong with that, and as the devs has expressed they disagree with your reasoning, nothing wrong with that either.
There's nothing stopping you changing it, and the point there is, nothing is stopping you from playing how you want to play, in fact this is encouraged.

data.raw["electric-pole"]["big-electric-pole"].wire_reach=32

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Re: Increase Big Electric Pole Wire Reach to 32 to = Chunk Size

Post by 5thHorseman »

PyroFire wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:36 am
5thHorseman wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:57 am
But you'd wonder why radar coverage was so blocky.
Personally, i find symmetrical factories ugly.
I don't see what these two things have to do with each other.

My factories aren't symmetrical, but I still notice that areas on the map are revealed in blocks that confirm to a universal grid. Saying there is no indication of that grid in the game is therefore false.
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Re: Increase Big Electric Pole Wire Reach to 32 to = Chunk Size

Post by Zaflis »

PyroFire wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:36 am
Fact is you're asking for something to be changed to suit your playstyle.
Nothing wrong with that, and as the devs has expressed they disagree with your reasoning, nothing wrong with that either.
There's nothing stopping you changing it, and the point there is, nothing is stopping you from playing how you want to play, in fact this is encouraged.
The thing you are ignoring here is that it's not just my playstyle, it's the majority opinion to increase it to 32. Use strawpoll or anything, we already know the outcome. Not even Rseding said anything pro 30 wire distance. There's plenty of discussion pro 32, nothing against 32. No discussion pro 30. Is there more to be said? Just because a feature has been left as is for long time doesn't mean it's in a perfect place.

https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comme ... ppointing/
232 votes, 96% upvotes.

https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comme ... ole_reach/
14 votes, 90% upvotes.

https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comme ... the_large/
62 votes, 92% upvotes.

Of benefits to chunk alignment: https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comme ... lueprints/
I like this one:
I do it so no matter where I start building something it will line up with everything else on the map.
On top of that some popular conversion mods go for 32 reach, Industrial Revolution i can confirm is one, i think Bob's does it too.

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Re: Increase Big Electric Pole Wire Reach to 32 to = Chunk Size

Post by Bilka »

lol, reddit post upvotes as opinion barometers. Never change forums, never change.
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Re: Increase Big Electric Pole Wire Reach to 32 to = Chunk Size

Post by Zaflis »

Bilka wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:28 am
lol, reddit post upvotes as opinion barometers. Never change forums, never change.
Feel free to downplay reddit community as much as you wish, just wanted to show it's a topic that is being raised time and time again and people agree. If you don't really care if it's 30 or 32, this is not a topic for you. Distance/game balance-wise a 6.66..% distance difference is very minor to matter. But for long term planning for megabasers it matters a lot. It matters so much in fact it's one of big motivational hurdles wether you want to play the game at all or not.

You must be aware of how most people are are more "vanilla-purists" when it comes to magabases. Showcasing a base that was built using mods is 1 good way to lose others interests. Why put so much effort into something that nobody will care about? "Play the game the way you want" is actually total lie when it comes to mods. The moment you put loaders and warehouses and god modules is when your playthrough is worth nothing in others eyes. Then any little mods matter too.

Why this little thing cannot be put in vanilla game? There are people who embrace the spaghetti but also those who do not. Until there is this 1 thing where spaghetti is enforced so much you can't build cleanly around the fact.

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Re: Increase Big Electric Pole Wire Reach to 32 to = Chunk Size

Post by PyroFire »

Zaflis wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:55 am
Feel free to downplay reddit community as much as you wish, just wanted to show it's a topic that is being raised time and time again and people agree. If you don't really care if it's 30 or 32, this is not a topic for you. Distance/game balance-wise a 6.66..% distance difference is very minor to matter. But for long term planning for megabasers it matters a lot. It matters so much in fact it's one of big motivational hurdles wether you want to play the game at all or not.
Have you heard of robocraft?
What about loadout?

Both of these games were driven into the ground by the developers obliging with community feedback and requests.
Loadout in particular isn't even available for play anymore -- It used to be huge!

I don't care if the reddit approval rating was a complete 100% -- A feature being desired by the player base does Not, i repeat, DOES NOT translate to that feature being a good one.

So i will downplay the reddit community as much as is needed to prevent bad ideas ruining yet another gem of a game.
Zaflis wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:55 am
Why this little thing cannot be put in vanilla game?
Why can't this little clock be put in vanilla game to keep your play sessions under 8760 hours because f*ck your job, your family and your wellbeing?
there's simply no valid argument to be made against just adding a clock to keep track of play session lengths.

And while we're talking about little things to suit your view of the game, why don't we also change a little thing about the radar and make it a 2x2 instead of a 3x3 so it can fit perfectly into the center of a chunk? What about increasing the size to 4x4 for the same chunk-alignment reason?
there's simply no valid argument to be made against just changing the radar size so it can be placed perfectly aligned in a chunk.

Let's also do a little removal of the burner inserter because it is practically useless, and i personally have never used it.
there's simply no valid argument to be made against just removing the burner inserter.

And what about a little change to make oil patches clearable like resource patches are so i can remove them and have a clear area to build in?
there's simply no valid argument to be made against just making oil patches clearable.

How about making the beacon radius a little bit bigger (say 1 tile) so that i have cleanly aligned rows of assemblers or beacon squares, instead of this weird, "hang the last beacon over one of the edges so all the assemblers have the same number of effects" or "so i can build a beacon square without having this weird misaligned shape".
there's simply no valid argument to be made against just making the beacon radius bigger.

I could continue, but i hope you're starting to see the pattern here.
My question is, where does it end?

Your belief in an idea or concept does not make it true, and to illustrate - the problem with all of the above suggestions is they are counter to the developers vision of their product otherwise these things would already be in the game.
No amount of reasoning, upvotes, or lobbying would ever change this.

You might ask, ok why make suggestions then if they are never acted upon - well, maybe you have some information or ideas that the developers simply haven't thought of or considered yet, for example: "the wire length being at 30 leads to ugly factory designs. Here's some screenshot examples of the ugliness" (it doesn't, so no screenshots of that exist, but i believe 32 would result in fairly distasteful factory designs).
But that hasn't been said or shown in this thread, so i must then agree that the devs decision of leaving it at 30 is the best decision.

I mean, they literally made factorio the widely known title it is today, and have spawned so many offshoots like satisfactory, factory town, automation empire.
Factorio literally created its own genre.
I think the devs know what they're doing, even if they refuse to add an in-game clock to prevent 8760 hour long playsessions.
Zaflis wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:55 am
Showcasing a base that was built using mods is 1 good way to lose others interests.
Who are these "others"?
And why do you or I care about their interests?

And If you're talking about youtube "interest" - I'm looking for something that is entertaining to watch. Mods are more or less irrelevant to that fact.
Example; here's some guy playing cities skylines with like a bajillion mods installed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3zsAiuL58c
I would never play this way, but that's not why i'm watching it -- i'm watching it because i find it entertaining, so there goes your theory there down in flames.
Zaflis wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:55 am
Why put so much effort into something that nobody will care about?
Do you really care that little about your own creations?
Seems like a pretty bleak outlook if you ask me.

Perhaps here's a better question.

Why are you putting so much effort into a game that you get basically nothing out of?
You can't put food on the table by building a factorio factory.
You also can't take anything you make in factorio with you into the real world or any other games.

Why are you playing games at all if all you're after is the approval of others?
You can get that by going outside and physically talking to people & trying to make real friends.
Zaflis wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:55 am
"Play the game the way you want" is actually total lie when it comes to mods.
The only lies here are the ones you are telling yourself.
Zaflis wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:55 am
The moment you put loaders and warehouses and god modules is when your playthrough is worth nothing in others eyes.
In Your** eyes.

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Re: Increase Big Electric Pole Wire Reach to 32 to = Chunk Size

Post by Zaflis »

PyroFire wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:02 am
(Wall of text)
It looks like you have never visited https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/ before. It's a nice place, i can recommend trying. Personally i love playing with mods of all kinds. Reddit is perhaps the best place to post your base screenshots and videos, get feedback, give feedback, learn new builds and guide new players. There's just this 1 thing, the general concensus that mods ruin the game. If you don't see it, you're not really looking. You can join me trying to fight that mentality as it seems you agree. Have you ever posted a 2000 SPM megabase only to see it downvoted to 0? It only happens in specific situation, can you guess? And yes of course dealing with social media approval is pretty everyday life for many people. If you put much effort into something cool and people don't like it, it's quite human reaction to get depressed.

You don't have to tell about issue of developers obeying community, it does happen with some games. However there's 2 kinds of feedback:
1) Proposals made by emotion, temporary state of the game or just shortsighted. Changing something would fix a small issue but harm the bigger picture.

2) Thought out ideas that would genuinely make players like the game more, some even so good that they liven up the community and bring more players. Such as the Factorio's 0.17 UI overhaul or addition of artillery turrets.

Sometimes the line between 1) and 2) is blurry and the real outcome only reveals itself after a long period of time.

I reasoned the suggestion in the spirit of 2). So far no counter arguments have been made. "Developers vision" is always subject to change, don't ever take any single feature for granted because nothing in any game set in stone. There has to be flexibility to change something if it's better for the game. Make suggestions, even bold ones. However some things are more solid than others, such as the decision against using loaders. That's fine really, they would have quite a big impact on all parts of the game and simplify it much.

Pros and cons then? (Why do we have to go this far to justify little change as this, seriously?)
+ The fix would be trivial, change value 30 to 32.
+ Social media reaction (forums/reddit/discord) is expected very positive based on previous reactions.
+ The effect to new and casual players is none at all, but longterm players would welcome it very much. Ingame it's almost as if nothing changed. Builders know the difference though, oh they do!
+ All the old blueprints would still work.
+ Once you have seen and learned about chunks, there's no unlearning it. The ingame radar, fog-of-war and pollution cloud already hint well about them. I mean they do in quite obvious way.
+ You could make a railway and place radars on even distance between them. Say radar every 7 big powerpoles or whereever the radar reveal range was. In current game that would make random overlaps or gaps in reveal area, because 30 is no measure of chunk size. Really the railways would be the main benefactor of the change. We like trains yes?
+ With chunk alignment you can start building railways from 2 ends simultaneously and they would cleanly connect in the middle, be it grid-like patterns or straight line.
+ If you don't play with chunks still, that's just fine nothing's changed for you! But if you do, you can play too now! Win-win for both parties.

- Having that kind of chunk alignment reduces chaos. However it only affects the most experienced megabase builders, so it's really arguable if they need restrictions that reduce possibility to make organized builds. The most interesting "spaghetti" comes from new players, and big power poles 30 or 32 would not be any factor in that spaghettification.
- Long lasting standard of 30 length. You might think, why change something that's been the way it is for so long. Why fix something that works? I would say... yes it works, up to a point. The change would be small enough that most players would be unlikely to notice it.

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Re: Increase Big Electric Pole Wire Reach to 32 to = Chunk Size

Post by Bilka »

Zaflis wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:55 am
Bilka wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:28 am
lol, reddit post upvotes as opinion barometers. Never change forums, never change.
Feel free to downplay reddit community as much as you wish, just wanted to show it's a topic that is being raised time and time again and people agree.
I dont recall downplaying it. To elaborate: the most upvoted post you show has 240 upvotes. So 240 people agree that it is a relevant post. You say that those 240 people are the majority. They aren't. They are a small part of the self selected group of factorio subreddit subscribers which are currently about 10% of the people who have bought the game. You'd need more than 800k people to agree with you to have a majority. Do you see why I find your "reddit proof for majority" hilarious?

If you lead your life aiming for the approval of others and let them shame you into not doing what you like as you describe in your last post, then I am truly sad for you. I can't imagine living not how I want simply because some group of people doesn't like it.
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