Lategame reseachs for UPS optimisation

Ideas, that are too old (too much things changed) or won't be implemented cause of some reasons or if there are obvious better suggestions.

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Givikap120
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Lategame reseachs for UPS optimisation

Post by Givikap120 »

UPS is a bottleneck for creating huge bases and adding tools to increase UPS may cause balance problems, so I think adding new researchers after launching a rocket (using white science) is a good idea.
UPS killers:
- balancers
Possible solution: adding 4 and 8 input splitters
- manipulators
Possible solution: adding direct inserters (they will be really OP in many cases, so I think they need to be very expensive and electricity-hungry)
- pipes
Possible solution: adding acceleration pipes (what is not distributing fluids between other pipes, but pushing in 1 direction like belts)
- nuclear reactor heat calculations
Possible solution: same as pipes or transferring heat like electricity (to balance "electricity-like" transporting you can make it 3x or 4x less efficient than a normal one)

General solutions (improve in several ways):
- adding electric mini-trains, what is transporting a large amount of 1 resource from point A to point B => balancers are less needed, no calculation for every single unit of resource needed
- adding compress recipes (for example, 10 iron + 30 copper wire -> 10 green circuits) => less assembly machines calculation needed
Addition: I think a better way to make this work better is to add a new assembler (like T4), which is the same as T3 but works only with compress recipes.
- adding compress items (10 iron -> 1 compressed iron, 1 c. iron + 3 c. copper wire -> 1 c. green circuit) => less belts needed, less balancers needed, less manipulators => very good performance boost. Would be OP. Possible balancing solution -> 10 iron -> 1 compressed iron but 1 compressed iron -> 8 iron.

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Re: Lategame reseachs for UPS optimisation

Post by ssilk »

AFAIK this won’t happen, because you want to change things, that are the core Factorio game-play.

And on the other hand there are also lot of mods, that do exactly that.

Balancers:

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/belt-balancer
Maybe not useful for megabases. But building megabases and using balancers is a no go at all, you need to find ways to built without balancing or balance with train wagons. There are lot of videos about how to do these, which I don’t want to link here.

Inserters:

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/deadlock- ... es-loaders
And many other loader mods. https://mods.factorio.com/query/Loaders?version=1.1

Pipes & Nucular:

Already discussed a lot of times. It will not change, you can switch to solar and use improved solar panels instead. Also dozens of mods.

Compressed recipes:

See the https://mods.factorio.com/mod/deadlock- ... es-loaders above.
The whole family of extension for more stuff around it:
https://mods.factorio.com/query/Deadloc ... ersion=1.1

Together with faster assemblers (also lot of mods) you can reduce the speed of a megabase a lot.

I found there is a newer mods that can be used, to reduce transport even more:
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/DeepStacking

Mini trains: I don’t see the advantages.

So moving it to won’t implement .
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Re: Lategame reseachs for UPS optimisation

Post by Givikap120 »

I said what it will be post-rocket researches, so gameplay before the rocket won't change.
UPS issue in late-game forcing you to use only one type of solution: only solar energy can be used, only trains can be used to transport basic materials, etc...
Adding new UPS-friendly ways to do things can add more diversity to the late game.

4l and 8l balancers can be used as intermediate steps between the standard base to launch the rocket and megabase with full train automation. Also, even though I said that it will be white science research,
I think adding 4l balancers is a very good QoL change even to a normal game. I am using a lot of ugly 4l and insanely ugly 3l balancers in the midgame and adding at least 4l balancers will improve the gameplay experience.
I know about this mod, but it is too OP because you can build a pretty big balancer massive, where each block is the input and output at the same time, so it can affect factory logic with a "spider-like" thing like in the last screen on the mod page. While 4l balancer is just QoL and UPS improvement, it doesn't ruin anything.

Yeah, I said what loaders are OP, and maybe adding them in the same look as in mods is not a good idea, but I am convinced there is a way to make them viable to vanilla.

I can't understand why adding new pipes and nuclear ups-friendly mechanism unlockable with white science in the late game is bad. It unlocks steam and nuclear power to use in the megabases, and increases diversity (maybe steam isn't so useful, but nuclear definitely is)

Same thing as with direct inserters: too OP, but can be fixed. I think my idea with resource lost on uncompressing is not bad after all.

Mini-trains can be used inside specialized factory units as an ups-friendly alternative to a bus. But it needs balancing to not being better than normal trains in terms of long-distance transporting.

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Re: Lategame reseachs for UPS optimisation

Post by Rseding91 »

Givikap120 wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:33 am
...
UPS issue in late-game forcing you to use only one type of solution: only solar energy can be used, only trains can be used to transport basic materials, etc...
Adding new UPS-friendly ways to do things can add more diversity to the late game.
...
If ultimate UPS is the goal, and there is a 'best' way to get it; that's what people will use. Unless 2 or more options are identical in performance there is no choice; the faster one must be used to get the ultimate goal (UPS). If 2 or more options are identical then there isn't likely to be any meaningful difference in the builds anyway so diversity isn't going to happen.
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Re: Lategame reseachs for UPS optimisation

Post by Givikap120 »

If you trying to access "the best ups" you are right, but if you are trying to get just high ups - no.
For example, we have only base 2 things that lower the UPS - electricity and production.
Let minimum production ups impact equals 1x.
And let now we have 2 choices for electricity: solar panels which cost 0.1x and nuclear power which costs 1x.
And in that case, we have a choice - 2x ups impact and 1.1x ups impact where the difference is huge.
If we had optimized nuclear power which costs, for example, 0.2x ups impact we will have a choice between 1.1x and 1.2x, where the difference is so big, so in that case, you can use nuclear if you like it more (for example you don't like huge solar fields) and still get decent performance.

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Re: Lategame reseachs for UPS optimisation

Post by ssilk »

Givikap120 wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:24 pm
If you trying to access "the best ups" you are right, but if you are trying to get just high ups - no.
Then you don’t need to optimize Factorio. Use some mods that enables you a different gameplay, e.g, faster buildings that enables you to build less for the same throughput. 8-)
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