Yuoki Industries - Informations, Suggestions, Questions

[hoho]

techs all aviable at this point for faster testing

You could just run a script that would enable all your tech from the start: https://forums.factorio.com/wiki/inde ... chnologies

[YuokiTani]

i'am not realy enjoy scripting here, because it needs every time a game restart - (i think) - thats a pain.

my current work, with gfx needs most 2 or 3 starts to get graphics in correct position, and sometime i make a error this results in another restart. but realy lua-scripting tends to more errors. if somehow a way to check the code prevoius - like - factorio.exe -checkcode it would help. but now i load the game, then a savegame and then i see something is wrong ... maybe fix this in code, and the procedure starts again.
maybe it's possible to load code dynamic in-game but i don't know how.

the other side, for hardcore codeing you need insight/knowledge of some functions/interfaces. in wiki these are not realy good documentated in my opion. it's possible to analyse other mods (DyTech, F-Mod, Treefarm) to get in-depth knowledge but at this point it's for me (and current mod-state) not required.

return to starting-point
the tech and research is only in game to waste resources, the research generate the great hunger for resources. in my mod you need some of this basic-research, but the story says you crashed with your spaceship ... so it's for me easy to say you know the most tech otherwise you would surely very quick eaten by some biters.
but at some point i would add some tech, and i think you would hate this time

beside that, i think i add this lua-script ... so thanks for the link.

[FreeER]

i'am not realy enjoy scripting here, because it needs every time a game restart - (i think) - thats a pain.

You don't need to restart Factorio to see changes in control.lua scripts, you can just reload the save, or make a new game without restarting (if you have 0.10.1 it won't load saves it created lol).

in wiki these are not realy good documentated in my opion.

When you encounter these then send me pm or, even better, make a topic in the wiki talk subforum with a list of what you think needs some improvement and I (and others) can try to improve them, what's there is usually enough for me to understand how to use it (and obviously so for the devs) so it's hard for me to just look at it and say that someone else wouldn't understand it

[YuokiTani]

i'am not realy enjoy scripting here, because it needs every time a game restart - (i think) - thats a pain.

You don't need to restart Factorio to see changes in control.lua scripts, you can just reload the save, or make a new game without restarting (if you have 0.10.1 it won't load saves it created lol).

in wiki these are not realy good documentated in my opion.

When you encounter these then send me pm or, even better, make a topic in the wiki talk subforum with a list of what you think needs some improvement and I (and others) can try to improve them, what's there is usually enough for me to understand how to use it (and obviously so for the devs) so it's hard for me to just look at it and say that someone else wouldn't understand it

i have not used the control.lua, because it works without and it's faster to change things. but for polish the mod i think i need to insert all the stuff in tables and lua-code.

it's not very useful for every modder, but for me it's interesting what methods a must have, and which are optional. example: can a wall/chest-entity have an animation or electric-usage ? (optional: resistence, must-have: icon, name, picture) - but its a lot of documentation for all entity-types and maybe not the time worth.
this would also make mod-creation to easy

i will check some stuff and idea's, and then i end impasse - it's time for questions. (you have post many code-examples in different threads, so i think i need only search the fitting parts)

[Slan]

Yuoki, you really do a great job. Thanks for your mod. You really have to leave work in progress board for the real one, or maybe ask for a place in the big mod board.

Edit : Sorry, i just read you're probably german, so i dislike you and your mod because germany is going to eliminate french soccer team in quarter final of the world cup soon. Of course, if France win, i will like you and your job again.

[drs9999]

Of course, if France win, i will like you and your job again.

Which of course we all know will not be the case

[YuokiTani]

Edit : Sorry, i just read you're probably german, so i dislike you and your mod because germany is going to eliminate french soccer team in quarter final of the world cup soon. Of course, if France win, i will like you and your job again.

lol ... but after enough lol i had a idea - okay you maybe not profit from this anymore, but other mod-users should.

You really have to leave work in progress board for the real one, or maybe ask for a place in the big mod board.

^^ it was a mistake from me to post in wrong board as i started, but i can live with this. until i'am not finished a documentation, all needed graphics - i won't remove the WIP. i'am not sure if it was in mod-board weekly-updates sounds as a good idea. in a absolute worst-case scenario - wip - never ends

[YuokiTani]

okay a new post ... because i would tease the next update, and show the maybe not so great idea

let's tell a little story - your spaceship crashed into this nameless planet. you, your knowledge and the build-computer survived. you work hard and get a huge factory and you will never leave this planet because you feel now it's yours. beside these nasty biters - they will not learn who is the right planet-owner ... planet master ... god

but at this point i can help you

you can now build a planet-owners-monument. even in the darkest nights it shines bright, and this light reaches every dark hole, and sends the message who the new master of this planet is, and the god (maybe you or the cogwheel has arrived.
but i think these biter are not very happy about this, so it's up to you to teach them.

The Dark Night and the Power of Light


The Master's Message

okay, it's a little bit strange, but i think some fun-stuff can not hurt.
oh and with this change, i correct the pollution of boiler 540/2. - all aviable with next update, as always latest at sunday.
(if i found somewhere more time more strange/usefull things can happen )

the original idea was to use a football for wm-time and other figure, but the cogwheel does the job very good

[Schmendrick]

if someone wish to make experiments - every game-fluid has a heat-capactity-value - it can be changed. it's very funny to see a steam-turbine at full speed with a fluid at 10°C, but the core-mechanic can't be tricked. you still need transfer heat trougth boilers into this fluid. i have tried a different way and maked steam at 100°C temperature and overheated with boiler to 110°C (150°C). the game consumes only the kW you have previous through boilers(burner) added. so all depends on how effective and fast the boiler can transfer the kW into the fluid.

The boiler's rated kW usage is equal to the amount of energy it imparts to the fluid. Its listed "effectivity" is equal to the rate at which it converts fuel to that energy. You can see this by changing a standard boiler's effectivity without changing its kW usage and comparing how fast it burns the same fuel: a 100% efficient boiler burns one piece of wood slower than a 50% one.

As for specific heat: 1 raw wood has 4.0 MJ of energy and in a standard boiler (50% effectivity) can raise the temperature of 100 units of water by 20 degrees; that's 2MJ for 2000 "waterdegrees" (meaning fluid units in Factorio are not liters, because joules and calories are not so simply correlated). Changing the heat capacity of water from "1KJ" to "2KJ" and repeating the experiment, one piece of wood only raises the temperature by 10 degrees.

(Standard) steam engines extract energy from a fluid at 100% efficiency (as observable from their effectivity attribute): setting up a simple boiler - steam engine - accumulator string, introducing fuel, and waiting for the system to equalize will result in half the fuel's listed MJ in the accumulators, no matter what the operating temperatures for the duration were (though of course the process occurs more slowly when the system is cooler). This is true even when the heat capacity of water changes. Note that the listed kW rating of steam engines appears to be calculated from its fluid_usage_per_tick and effectivity, and the heat-capacity, default_temperature, and max_temperature of water. This holds promise for direct fluid-to-electricity generators if we are able to restrict what fluids an engine accepts and are given write access to runtime fluid properties.

I've not experimented with alternate fluids, but I assume there is no difference.

[Slan]

About accumulators :

Base recipe is like some battery and 2 iron plate, for 5MJ. So it's cheap but we need to really have a lot to work only with solar at night, especially if we want to be abble to fire with our laser turret.

Your best is 4 times better, hard to make (well not so hard but durotal don't come so fast) and take 2.25 more place. So in fact it's less than twice better. I think you can go deeper in this way, because we really need some "small" possibilities to store energy. finaly while trying to make two of your big accumulator i was instead placing quickly 50 basic one.

Proposition :
- Make deeper, better, and not so large accumulator. So even if not usefull at start because of the cost it would at medium/end game.
OR
- deactivate the base accumulator, so we have no choice but use yours (not really friendly but can be fun)

[Vitduo]

Up for 0.2.3 + changelog + some poragraphs for discuss with YoukiTani (feedback to pm).
Here V

[YuokiTani]

(Standard) steam engines extract energy from a fluid at 100% efficiency (as observable from their effectivity attribute): setting up a simple boiler - steam engine - accumulator string, introducing fuel, and waiting for the system to equalize will result in half the fuel's listed MJ in the accumulators, no matter what the operating temperatures for the duration were (though of course the process occurs more slowly when the system is cooler). This is true even when the heat capacity of water changes. Note that the listed kW rating of steam engines appears to be calculated from its fluid_usage_per_tick and effectivity, and the heat-capacity, default_temperature, and max_temperature of water. This holds promise for direct fluid-to-electricity generators if we are able to restrict what fluids an engine accepts and are given write access to runtime fluid properties.
I've not experimented with alternate fluids, but I assume there is no difference.

I'am sure you described this correct, but here is more to explain. I use the same parameters as normal water, changed only the temperature-cap - this raised output from 510 kW to 544 kW. in wiki or somewhere i have seen a formula. maybe you can explain this - and i can use this effect better - in my tests i never came over 544 kW.

Screens here

to change fluid i add the needed machine between the pump and boiler. this machine adds no heat or something it's a 1:1 recipe - 50 water to 50 water-clean. it works also with lower temperature (testet 150°C)

About accumulators :
Base recipe is like some battery and 2 iron plate, for 5MJ. So it's cheap but we need to really have a lot to work only with solar at night, especially if we want to be abble to fire with our laser turret.
Your best is 4 times better, hard to make (well not so hard but durotal don't come so fast) and take 2.25 more place. So in fact it's less than twice better. I think you can go deeper in this way, because we really need some "small" possibilities to store energy. finaly while trying to make two of your big accumulator i was instead placing quickly 50 basic one.
Proposition :
- Make deeper, better, and not so large accumulator. So even if not usefull at start because of the cost it would at medium/end game.
OR
- deactivate the base accumulator, so we have no choice but use yours (not really friendly but can be fun)

i'am not really a fan of this solar-panels - way to cheap energy. there is in industrio-mod a accu-2 with better values, i think i oriented between base and industrio - but the current values more the base like all others, and need tweaked, balanced and changed over time. your post give me a starting-point where i can think about it. - deactivation from any base/vanilla is no option -
for fast reaction you can possible use generator-s3 or small-steam-turbines both same electric level (3) as accumulators. - but these are not the last words, because i would flatten the power-line, and get this flickering from high to low consumption out (in all steam-generators) - an inverted accu can do this - or a larger buffer somewhere.

Up for 0.2.3 + changelog.

thank you, - i will look and try to anwser.

[Schmendrick]

(Standard) steam engines extract energy from a fluid at 100% efficiency (as observable from their effectivity attribute): setting up a simple boiler - steam engine - accumulator string, introducing fuel, and waiting for the system to equalize will result in half the fuel's listed MJ in the accumulators, no matter what the operating temperatures for the duration were (though of course the process occurs more slowly when the system is cooler). This is true even when the heat capacity of water changes. Note that the listed kW rating of steam engines appears to be calculated from its fluid_usage_per_tick and effectivity, and the heat-capacity, default_temperature, and max_temperature of water. This holds promise for direct fluid-to-electricity generators if we are able to restrict what fluids an engine accepts and are given write access to runtime fluid properties.
I've not experimented with alternate fluids, but I assume there is no difference.

I'am sure you described this correct, but here is more to explain. I use the same parameters as normal water, changed only the temperature-cap - this raised output from 510 kW to 544 kW. in wiki or somewhere i have seen a formula. maybe you can explain this - and i can use this effect better - in my tests i never came over 544 kW.

That is... very interesting. I did a few more experiments and it seems that the steam engine's parameters are in fact tied specifically to water's attributes. In vanilla all fluids have the same attributes and substituting another liquid for water has no noticeable difference, but when you fiddle with the numbers something interesting happens.

The steam engine's listed output always matches the math for using water, as I noted above. But water's values also seem to serve as a cap of some sort on steam engine performance. Modifying water and another fluid (I used light oil, because I had a tank full already for testing) show that as long as water's possible performance was greater than the other fluid's, everything worked just as you would expect. But whenever the alternate fluid's total potential exceeded water's, the generator capped out at a fraction over water's potential. The overage is clearly 1/15th for smaller values, and probably the same for higher values - though rounding issues with the display gum things up a bit: quadrupling water for 2.04 MW output displays as 2.0 MW, and the overage (at the assumed 16/15ths) should be 2.176 MW but is displayed as 2.2 MW.

The significance of 16/15 eludes me; I'm sure it's a hint into Factorio's internals and part of me wants to say it has to do with bitmasking but considering all the float usage that doesn't make much sense. Any ideas?

[YuokiTani]

factorio-wiki says (Liquid-network)

Power in watts = (Temp - 15) * 6
(100 - 15) * 6 = 510 W
(15 - 15) * 6 = 0.

my intention earlier was to change this ranges, but it's i think not possible. beside that it's interesting if the cap in the fluid or in fluid-engine-transfer, because if i make my water 200 °C it would assume (200-15)*6 = 1110 = 2.18 engines at full power. but it does not explain the 544 - or in some code is a old value that caps other fluid in range 10°C - 100°C -> (100-10)*6=540 ^^.

- in new version i have a solution for standard-construction-bots using advanced repair-packs.
- a downgrade-recipe would be aviable for this, if you have build many advanced at this time.

[Doskan]

How do tanks work? i have biomass stuck on a underground tank
Tried pipe valve but dunno how it works either lol

[hoho]

How do tanks work? i have biomass stuck on a underground tank
Tried pipe valve but dunno how it works either lol

From the description it seemed that one needs to use pump to pull out fluids from them.


Talking about the tanks, you should look at their recipes. They are currently far cheaper (per volume of capacity) than vanilla-tanks.

[Doskan]

How do tanks work? i have biomass stuck on a underground tank
Tried pipe valve but dunno how it works either lol

From the description it seemed that one needs to use pump to pull out fluids from them.

Can't see any description at all, but it worked using pumps, thanks

Talking about the tanks, you should look at their recipes. They are currently far cheaper (per volume of capacity) than vanilla-tanks.

That's why im trying to use them lol

[Airat9000]

YuokiTani please big mass in storage liquid (50к 250к and 1mln ))
on the stock is suddenly a crisis in planet:)

[YuokiTani]

YuokiTani please big mass in storage liquid (50к 250к and 1mln ))
on the stock is suddenly a crisis in planet:)

i think it's not a great idea, storeage planetary oceans in tanks
but bigger tanks need more deeper underground-storeage -> more powerful pumps needed.

Talking about the tanks, you should look at their recipes. They are currently far cheaper (per volume of capacity) than vanilla-tanks.

pumping out is a major drawback (these tanks suck fluids), but i can rework this. next version changes some recipes for metals and alloys and their use and tanks also profit from this (enough ?).
also only, you (mod-users/players) give me this feedback i can change and balance the mod - thank you all.
earlier feedback this week i the reason why i recalc the accumulators, and in next version it's changed.

most current stuff is useful and good - but for next time i will focus on starting point of the mod - this means energy, and i should realy begin a documentation.

[hoho]

pumping out is a major drawback (these tanks suck fluids), but i can rework this

Yes, requiring a pump is a nice additional resource sink but still I feel that a tnk with over twice the capacity of vanilla tank shouldn't cost a fraction of resources. Having said that ....

next version changes some recipes for metals and alloys and their use and tanks also profit from this (enough ?).

... this is a nice way to bring some additional balance to the whole tank situation