From Player To Player (Theocrafting, Builds, Blueprints, Tips, Workarounds)

Energy production, weapons, handling fluids and much more - excellent graphics.

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From Player To Player (Theocrafting, Builds, Blueprints, Tips, Workarounds)

Post by YuokiTani » Wed Aug 05, 2015 3:42 pm

I think all Themes in the subject needs a own thread, so it's here.

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Re: From Player To Player (Theocrafting, Builds, Blueprints, Tips, Workarounds)

Post by Darloth » Wed Aug 05, 2015 9:49 pm

Theorycrafting you say?

Sounds like a perfect place for an analysis of plastic production.

Assuming 50% energy reduction because YI modules make it really cheap to get that.

1.2mw * 0.5 = 0.6mw to run cimota

= 0.6mj per second
= 1.2mj for 8 plastic = 0.15mj per plastic
= 3mj to convert 10 petrol = 0.3mj per petrol
= 0.525mj total per plastic


0.5 coal + 3 petrol + 0.5 seconds = 1 plastic

0.42mw * 0.5 = 0.21mw to run oil refinery

5 seconds = 1.05mj to convert 10 oil into 11 intermediate products, of which 5.5 is usable petrol, cracking the rest costs about the same again, so assume about 2.1mj to crack 10 oil into 10 petrol, ish, which is about 0.21mj to crack 1 oil to 1 petrol.
very small cost to mine 1 coal.

about 0.63mj to produce 3 petrol from 3 oil
= about 0.315mj per plastic


So, doing it 'naturally' costs about 0.2mj less per plastic produced, BUT (and it's a big but :) ) you get only 6.6 plastic per 10 oil, and the production chain to produce it is pretty huge.

A pair of cimota reactors can produce it straight out of the derrick at 8 per 10 oil, and since higher rank modules work better on the lower number of machines, can probably be made efficient enough to make up for that energy, wheras you'd need to upgrade the modules in at a minimum four machines to do the same for natural oil - you'll also need to run that production cycle off coal, which is theoretically limited (though abundant) and generally the plumbing for it will be considerably more complicated with pipes and belts and all sorts.

As a final thing, you don't even NEED to use oil for plastic with the reactor, it'll happily take blue+green stuff->uc2, iron, copper, whatever, and still be more efficient than using the actual resources. Personally, I think 4 or 5 plastic for one UC2 might be more appropriate.

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Re: From Player To Player (Theocrafting, Builds, Blueprints, Tips, Workarounds)

Post by Fatmice » Wed Aug 05, 2015 11:45 pm

I disagree. You should note that none of Youki's machineries have the benefit of productivity modules. I consider the extra plastics gotten through cimotas as a productivity bonus. You are atomically constructing plastics whereas the vanilla production uses chemical reactions. The two processes are leagues apart in terms of productivity. Therefore, I say it is exactly as it should be, 8 plastics per unicomp. Better technology should always yield more from staring materials.

Furthermore, you can not convert 10 oil into 1 unicomp, it is 1 unicomp -> 10 oil so equating 10 oil -> 8 plastic is false.
Last edited by Fatmice on Fri Aug 07, 2015 1:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Current release: 0.6.6 - Requires 0.14.x
Example build - Requires 0.14.x

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Re: From Player To Player (Theocrafting, Builds, Blueprints, Tips, Workarounds)

Post by MantisShrimp » Thu Aug 06, 2015 2:01 am

I made a corn to energy POWAH plant with notes and such. I hope this is useful for others trying to get into the mod and more specifically YI's various energy sources. This mod is awesome but the learning curve is a bit steep. Hopes this helps.

The ratio is pretty much 1 corn farm can provide enough seeds for 25 corn farms, so whatever the size you're planning on building, it needs to be multiple of 25. As for pressers, it's 1 presser per 2 corn farms. This build requires you to kick start the pressers with electric motors, but once the liquid-fuel burner kick in, it's self-sufficient and be ran indefinitely, provided that you provide the big boiler in the middle with solid fuel, which can be infused crystal.

The steps for this build is:
grow CORN->pressed into VEGGIE OIL->burnt to make MECHANICAL FLUID->BOIL to 500temp(require solid fuel in boiler)->ran through turbines to make ENERGY
corn POWAH plant
corn POWAH plant with notes
POWAH produced
Last edited by MantisShrimp on Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: From Player To Player (Theocrafting, Builds, Blueprints, Tips, Workarounds)

Post by YuokiTani » Thu Aug 06, 2015 5:08 pm

also a nice build (in vanilla it takes ~ 100 steam-engines to get 50 MW+)
i infuse mostly mud because unicomp is to expensive (i think always 20 iron/copper burned) - and use the gearbox-way in smaller scale.
but of course machines/factories get bigger so more power is needed ;)
Darloth wrote:Theorycrafting you say? ...
... Personally, I think 4 or 5 plastic for one UC2 might be more appropriate.
hmm, vanilla plastic presupposes you have coal and crude-oil aviable nearby and huge quantities. if you play more small-scale like i'am with only 1 refinery (max. 2) and not expand to much, your coal and oil is exhausted.
in general is uc->plastic a fail because it's the only not raw-material that can transmuted.

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Re: From Player To Player (Theocrafting, Builds, Blueprints, Tips, Workarounds)

Post by MantisShrimp » Thu Aug 06, 2015 5:54 pm

YuokiTani wrote:also a nice build (in vanilla it takes ~ 100 steam-engines to get 50 MW+)
i infuse mostly mud because unicomp is to expensive (i think always 20 iron/copper burned) - and use the gearbox-way in smaller scale.
but of course machines/factories get bigger so more power is needed ;)
I've thought about using infused mudballs, since they're a by product of a lot of things, alien crystal, washing iron/copper and such. I just haven't had a chance to connect this power plant to other factories in my world and unicomps are super plentiful since I transmute everything into it and it comes in stacks of 2500 so I can carry around obscene amount of them. I'm hoping to creating a power plant and supplying solid fuel that's entirely self sufficient. For this power plant, I will most likely use Vugar to go with the farming theme. I'll start on a solid-fuel engine power plant using infused mudballs afterward.

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Re: From Player To Player (Theocrafting, Builds, Blueprints, Tips, Workarounds)

Post by oLaudix » Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:57 pm

MantisShrimp wrote:I made a corn to energy POWAH plant with notes and such. I hope this is useful for others trying to get into the mod and more specifically YI's various energy sources. This mod is awesome but the learning curve is a bit steep. Hopes this helps.

The ratio is pretty much 1 corn farm can provide enough seeds for 25 corn farms, so whatever the size you're planning on building, it needs to be multiple of 25. As for pressers, it's 1 presser per 2 corn farms. This build requires you to kick start the pressers with electric motors, but once the liquid-fuel burner kick in, it's self-sufficient and be ran indefinitely, provided that you provide the big boiler in the middle with solid fuel, which can be infused crystal.

The steps for this build is:
grow CORN->pressed into VEGGIE OIL->burnt to make MECHANICAL FLUID->BOIL to 500temp(require solid fuel in boiler)->ran through turbines to make ENERGY
corn POWAH plant
POWAH produced
Screenshot without all the text to see what is what would be usefull. Also what do you mean by infused crystal?
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Re: From Player To Player (Theocrafting, Builds, Blueprints, Tips, Workarounds)

Post by MantisShrimp » Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:51 pm

oLaudix wrote:Screenshot without all the text to see what is what would be usefull. Also what do you mean by infused crystal?
I edited the original post to have one without all the text. Infused crystal is just another form of solid fuel, think coal on crack. It's made by putting Unicomps (the pink blocks) into an Infuser. Apparently it's not greatly efficient, but I like them. Yuoki Industries adds ton of fuel, some can be made from coal or wood while others from polluted air and the new ores it adds.

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Re: From Player To Player (Theocrafting, Builds, Blueprints, Tips, Workarounds)

Post by oLaudix » Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:19 am

MantisShrimp wrote:
oLaudix wrote:Screenshot without all the text to see what is what would be usefull. Also what do you mean by infused crystal?
I edited the original post to have one without all the text. Infused crystal is just another form of solid fuel, think coal on crack. It's made by putting Unicomps (the pink blocks) into an Infuser. Apparently it's not greatly efficient, but I like them. Yuoki Industries adds ton of fuel, some can be made from coal or wood while others from polluted air and the new ores it adds.
Thanks, its much more clear now. It is clearly late game build though :( I go full solar by that time. Btw how is power transmission shaft different from pipe? I successfully transported hydraulic pressure fuild through both.
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Re: From Player To Player (Theocrafting, Builds, Blueprints, Tips, Workarounds)

Post by MantisShrimp » Fri Aug 07, 2015 4:48 am

oLaudix wrote:Thanks, its much more clear now. It is clearly late game build though :( I go full solar by that time. Btw how is power transmission shaft different from pipe? I successfully transported hydraulic pressure fuild through both.
psssshhhh, here's a secret, the shaft are actually pipes because hydraulic fluid is well a fluid, just like oil, water and such. Took me a while to figure it out. They're just fancy looking pipes. They come in 2 different colors. They look nice for moving hydraulic fluid so I use them.

Yeah, this is pretty late game. However, there isn't a reason why you couldn't use corn to power smaller power plants, you would have to use smaller boilers and smaller turbines/generators, but it's pretty much the same. I just happened to went balls to the wall and built like 200 corn farms in my world. Like you, by the time I can reliably push the biters back I go full solar spam. I have paved worlds with solar panels. This is just another way to renewable energy that looks more interesting than fields and fields of solar panels.

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Re: From Player To Player (Theocrafting, Builds, Blueprints, Tips, Workarounds)

Post by SKleen75 » Fri Aug 07, 2015 8:22 am

Hello Shrimp,

what boiler are you using there? I cannot find it.

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Nevermind. I found it. I forgot to update.
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Re: From Player To Player (Theocrafting, Builds, Blueprints, Tips, Workarounds)

Post by YuokiTani » Fri Aug 07, 2015 2:18 pm

MantisShrimp wrote:
oLaudix wrote:Thanks, its much more clear now. It is clearly late game build though :( I go full solar by that time. Btw how is power transmission shaft different from pipe? I successfully transported hydraulic pressure fuild through both.
psssshhhh, here's a secret, the shaft are actually pipes because hydraulic fluid is well a fluid, just like oil, water and such. Took me a while to figure it out. They're just fancy looking pipes. They come in 2 different colors. They look nice for moving hydraulic fluid so I use them.
it's correct - but because hydraulic-fluid has different fluid-values it's more sticky and the flow-loss is higher.
shafts give backpressure and can limit the flow, especially if you can't produce enough hydraulic-fluid. i think after 10 - 15 vanilla pipes the hydraulic is nearly stuck. but best use depends on your build.

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Re: From Player To Player (Theocrafting, Builds, Blueprints, Tips, Workarounds)

Post by oLaudix » Fri Aug 07, 2015 6:11 pm

I have quick question about Hydromechanical Power and Hydraulic Pressured fluid. I noticed that Engine produces Hydromechanical Power, but the result is Hydraulic Pressured Fluid. Is it the same thing?

2nd question is about sutiation like this:
Image
In scenario above 1 engine can support almost full 5.3 generator and when i switch to lubricant + water it can do it easly. I understand the boilers to engines energy ratio but how do i calculate how much Pressured Fluid ill use on maximum output?
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Re: From Player To Player (Theocrafting, Builds, Blueprints, Tips, Workarounds)

Post by Fatmice » Fri Aug 07, 2015 7:10 pm

1/ Yes, they are the equivalent things, but not the same fluid in the prototypes.

2/ You need some math.

Code: Select all

P_max=(544/6)(fluid_usage_per_tick)(60 ticks)(effectivity)(water_heat_capacity)

* P_max is the power generated in KW from converting whatever fluid at maximum performance.
* fluid_usage_per_tick and effectivity are taken from lua files as defined by the mod author for their particular engines.
* 544/6 is the maximum energy conversion rate of the game, ~90.6 KJ/s.

                                         P_max
Actual-Fluid-usage-per-second= ------------------------
               [(heat_capacity)(Fluid-temperature - default_temperature)]

* This is the actual fluid usage rate by the generator in the game when working.
* heat_capacity and default-temperature are taken from lua files as defined by the mod author for that particular fluid.
* Fluid-temperature is the current fluid temperature value, it could be lower than the maximum value defined for that fluid.
For your 5.3-Generator-S, the prototype is y-meg-s, effectivity = 0.95, fluid_usage_per_tick = 1.0939; I am going to assume your water heat_capacity = 1; MF heat_capacity = 10, default_temperature = 15, max_temperature = 500; I'm going to assume your MF is at max_temperature when it arrives at the generator.
P_max = (544/6)(1.0939)(60)(0.95) = 5653.2752 KW ~ 5.7 MW
Fluid usage at P_max = 5653.2752 / (10*(500-15)) = 1.1656 MF/s ~ 1.2 MF/s
Maintainer and developer of Atomic Power. See here for more information.
Current release: 0.6.6 - Requires 0.14.x
Example build - Requires 0.14.x

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Re: From Player To Player (Theocrafting, Builds, Blueprints, Tips, Workarounds)

Post by YuokiTani » Fri Aug 07, 2015 7:14 pm

oLaudix wrote:I have quick question about Hydromechanical Power and Hydraulic Pressured fluid. I noticed that Engine produces Hydromechanical Power, but the result is Hydraulic Pressured Fluid. Is it the same thing?

2nd question is about sutiation like this:
Image
In scenario above 1 engine can support almost full 5.3 generator and when i switch to lubricant + water it can do it easly. I understand the boilers to engines energy ratio but how do i calculate how much Pressured Fluid ill use on maximum output?
because misunderstanding ... i constantly switch the names ... mechanical-force, shaft-power, hydraulic-fluid, hydraulic-pressure all the same. designed as Shaft-Power and output is torque ... but these fluids destroys everbodys imagination ;) - using boilers is complete wrong, but possible ^^
because from design you give rpm with some torque in a gearbox and more torque comes out. thats that gearboxes do for you. if you use boilers you waste your fuel, because every boiler has a efficency. the big boilers around 72% ... give them 8 MJ to eat they put only 5.76 MJ in the fluid. the generators designed to use Shaft-Torque so they have also a bad efficency and this multiplys the negative effects with boilers (in your setup 0,72 * 0,95 = 0,68 - but still more than vanilla (0.5) ^^). the fluid in your setup only transport the MJ ...
if you use the gearbox (or 2) you don't need any feeding fuel and get a higher output. - this would remove the bad-boiler-efficency

fatmice setups are compensate the negative effects by using high-efficent boiler and rensuir-turbine and at bigger scale this effects no more interest. but small scale you should use the gearbox - in my opinion.

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Re: From Player To Player (Theocrafting, Builds, Blueprints, Tips, Workarounds)

Post by oLaudix » Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:11 pm

Well i noticed that Pressured Fluid didnt move engines at 15 degrees so i assumed i need to heat it up. I wondered what gearbox was for. Gonna try it. Also its no final design or anything I just build stuff to see how it works.

EDIT1: K I dont get how gearbox work :D I need to put 1,6 fluid to get 1,4? But that is a loss?

It works but i have no idea how to calculate stuff now :D How many gearboxes i need to fully power the generator :D

EDIT2: K now i get it. After each gearbox i loose some of the fluid but its temperature increases by 100 degrees. This is more fun than i though :D Now i need to figure out how hot the fluid needs to be to move the engines properly
Fatmice wrote:
2/ You need some math.
This is very usefull. Thank you.
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Re: From Player To Player (Theocrafting, Builds, Blueprints, Tips, Workarounds)

Post by Fatmice » Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:45 pm

It depends on the type of generator and how many of them downstream of the gearbox. Use my math to figure it out.
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Re: From Player To Player (Theocrafting, Builds, Blueprints, Tips, Workarounds)

Post by YuokiTani » Sat Aug 08, 2015 2:04 pm

oLaudix wrote:EDIT1: K I dont get how gearbox work :D I need to put 1,6 fluid to get 1,4? But that is a loss?
here comes lubricant in play ... this reduces gearbox-friction (the loss) and allow more torque-transmission ;)

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Re: From Player To Player (Theocrafting, Builds, Blueprints, Tips, Workarounds)

Post by oLaudix » Sat Aug 08, 2015 6:16 pm

YuokiTani wrote:
oLaudix wrote:EDIT1: K I dont get how gearbox work :D I need to put 1,6 fluid to get 1,4? But that is a loss?
here comes lubricant in play ... this reduces gearbox-friction (the loss) and allow more torque-transmission ;)
And its a huge difference. On 5 gear transmisions, to raise the temp to 500 i get 51% with water and 82% with lube. Big difference'

Fluid handling is hard though ... I imagine i cant just put 50 Steam Generator A Even though producing 10 fluid per second could feed that.
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Re: From Player To Player (Theocrafting, Builds, Blueprints, Tips, Workarounds)

Post by MantisShrimp » Sat Aug 08, 2015 9:58 pm

Say hello to my Empire of Dirt, aka the infused mudball super center, also produces alien crystals(for fancier crystals) and poisons(for sulfuric acid for processing units) and unicomps(from transmuting the stones). I built a smaller version of this beast and was able to get like 70 or so infused mudballs a minute, so I figured I should super size it to obscene scale. I was originally making this solely for the unicomps transmuted from everything, but found that the other byproducts are super useful for other things. I currently don't have enough resources to make all the modules this thing needs. All of the miners and pressers need level 2 efficiency mods, all of the infusers and beacons and washers need level 3 speed and efficiency mods. Hopefully I got the ratios correct. I generated a world with extremely large terrain segmentation and I'm in the middle of a desert, so I got room to expand in every direction without water or even trees in the way. So space isn't a factor. Probably going to need to replace the fast belts with express belts. We'll see how it turns out when my robots finish moving the main base. I've decided to transmute all raw resources into unicomp and then transport them with a single cargo train, since unicomps are easier to store. Then if I need iron/copper, I will transmute and wash them all beforehand to get poison for the massive processing unit factory to come.
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