Yuoki Industries - Informations, Suggestions, Questions

[YuokiTani]

If you like to see results, I can show pictures of setups.
The only way that I see HC or EC pipes to be of use is if you change the pressure gradient in them. I don't think this can be modified directly...Fluid velocity can be modified though, but that would affect vanilla water fluid velocity.

Sure ! I want to see a different setup, so i can balance better.
Yes, HC and EC-pipes don't work as planed. It's a good question if this transfer-limit (pressure-flow) also works if entitys connected without pipes.
My intended solutions is to change the fluid, not the vanilla-water, so i can test all possible parameters.

Sometimes i think fluid flows faster, maybe was changed in factorio since 9.8.

[Fatmice]

Sure ! I want to see a different setup, so i can balance better.
Yes, HC and EC-pipes don't work as planed. It's a good question if this transfer-limit (pressure-flow) also works if entitys connected without pipes.
My intended solutions is to change the fluid, not the vanilla-water, so i can test all possible parameters.

Sometimes i think fluid flows faster, maybe was changed in factorio since 9.8.

I do know how you can measure fluid velocity. Since fluid flows from high pressure to low pressure, the velocity actually decreases as the pipe is being filled. You can see this when filling a storage tank.

Since pipe pressure = current_fill/max_fill, this number is never greater than 1. Therefore the greatest velocity is achieved when the pressure differential is 1 -> 0. You can see this with a maximally filled piped connected to an empty storage tank. For a split second, the fill rate is very fast then decreases at some rate. I suppose this could be used to measure the initial rate by polling the volume of the storage tank at constant interval. If you plot volume of storage tank vs time, you should get an asymptotically increasing function. If you plot ln[storage_tank_volume] vs time and find that the line is linear, then the slope of that line is the initial rate for the fluid flow.

Vanilla water has a pressure_to_velocity_ratio of 0.4. This means a pressure of 4 will generate a velocity of 10, but since pressure is dimensional less, I do not know what is the unit for velocity. Furthermore, since maximum pressure difference is 1, the maximum velocity is 2.5. But 2.5 of what? Fluid/s? Fluid/tick? There is also the energy_to_flow_ratio of 0.59...this I have no idea what it conveys. Viscosity? But clearly, "flow" and "velocity" can not mean the same thing.

Anyways, here are some obninsk setups. All generators are running at 100% performance. No HC or EC pipes used. The maximum power that can be generated is 24 MW per obninsk.

Save file (0.11.7)
http://www.mediafire.com/download/74171 ... k-test.zip
Mods
http://www.mediafire.com/download/k2z2a ... t_mods.zip

Obninsk-variations.jpg (836.93 KiB) Viewed 12270 times

By the way, minor detail, but your power/flow factor makes no sense. Fluid-flow is a per tick unit, so the way you have it would be power/tick. Power being KJ/s and tick is 60^-1 s => KJ/s/(60^-1 s) = 60 * KJ/s^2. Joule is a Nm = kg*m^2/s^2 => 60 * 1000 * kg * m^2/s^2/s^2 = 60000 kg * m^2/s^4....which has no meaning.

It would make more sense to simply multiply 60 tick to fluid-flow first so that the tick goes away and your fluid-flow is now units of fluid. So power/fluid-unit=> KJ/s/fluid-unit => makes a ton more sense.

Ex: Rensuir (2.14) vs Rensuir (2.15)

Rensuir (2.14)
11507 KW / (2.3750*60) = 80.75 KJ/unit-of-fluid
Rensuir (2.15)
11000 KW / (2.2467*60) = 81.60 KJ/unit-of-fluid <= a little more energy produced per unit of fluid consumed.

[YuokiTani]

Vanilla water has a pressure_to_velocity_ratio of 0.4. This means a pressure of 4 will generate a velocity of 10, but since pressure is dimensional less, I do not know what is the unit for velocity. Furthermore, since maximum pressure difference is 1, the maximum velocity is 2.5. But 2.5 of what? Fluid/s? Fluid/tick? There is also the energy_to_flow_ratio of 0.59...this I have no idea what it conveys. Viscosity? But clearly, "flow" and "velocity" can not mean the same thing.

i have test this yesterday again. pressure_to_velocity_ratio of 1.0 fills all pipes and tanks instantly - No loos behind engines, later i make a testbuild with some experimental stuff, so everyone can make own tests.

By the way, minor detail, but your power/flow factor makes no sense. Fluid-flow is a per tick unit, so the way you have it would be power/tick. Power being KJ/s and tick is 60^-1 s => KJ/s/(60^-1 s) = 60 * KJ/s^2. Joule is a Nm = kg*m^2/s^2 => 60 * 1000 * kg * m^2/s^2/s^2 = 60000 kg * m^2/s^4....which has no meaning.
It would make more sense to simply multiply 60 tick to fluid-flow first so that the tick goes away and your fluid-flow is now units of fluid. So power/fluid-unit=> KJ/s/fluid-unit => makes a ton more sense.

You are right, if i take the efficency away my power/flow-factor would be 5100, because the power/fluid is a constant = 510 kW. Beside that i update the sheet, and use your calc-way (i forgot 3 engines ^^)

Thanks for screen and savegame ! (nice looking builds)

*edit
- i didn't notice that beacons are so powerful and so extreme reduce power-consumption.
- no luck with testbuild, it should be functional (recipes & category), but factorio go sometimes a different way or whatever ... it's annoying as hell if no error shows up and the stuff don't work without any visible reason.

[YuokiTani]

finally i've got a running version, but not as planed. if someone can fix the recipes or explain why won't 2 or 3 fluid accepd would be great.
graphics are placeholder, but shows the plan. needs testing and measure of powerflow to balance correctly.

Many thanks to Liquius (Uranium-Power-Mod) ! His Nuclear-Fission-Reactor was the starting-point of the idea, and i looked into his code and after some testing i was sure to use for this energy-creation.
And with permission to use the code here now my intepretation.

craft-recipes temporary for testing
Solid-Fuel-Engine - consumes all solid-fuels, boiler-behavoir, but outputs direct steam into pipes. you can overheat the steam with normal boilers.
Fluid-Fuel-Engine - (better named combustion-engine) - takes heavy-oil (pipe in, no barrel) to produce steam. planed oil+cool-water+process-water - recipe not working so oil is left
Fluid-Hydraulic-Engine - takes lubricant and produces votiale fluid, can't overheated - planed lubricant+water+light-oil - recipe not working so lubricant is left

with steam or votiale fluid you can feed all steam-engines, turbines etc. FFE and FHE have self-consumption 100 kW bzw 200 kW.

i hope the link works, my webspace looks down ...
google - yi-energy_0.0.1
updated overview (needs more updates ^^)
google - boiler/engines/generators

next version includes electrical-water-generator, have the prepared gfx now some time.

[Fatmice]

*edit
- i didn't notice that beacons are so powerful and so extreme reduce power-consumption.
- no luck with testbuild, it should be functional (recipes & category), but factorio go sometimes a different way or whatever ... it's annoying as hell if no error shows up and the stuff don't work without any visible reason.

=) I used the beacons for its intended purpose. I would call that a vanilla feature.

Cool stuff, I'll take a look at your new engines.

[G_glop]

I'm installing it right now, good luck!

[YuokiTani]

updated Information-Sheet Values Sheet

new version of new engines-concept - still no graphics, but enery-creation-recipes are working correctly now. => yi-engines a2
SFE produce 190°C steam, FFE 240°C you can combine outputs into 1 pipe, i suggest to split. these engines are not flow-through, they heat the water to steam and spit it out, so no input for steam. same concept on HFE, mixing water+oil+lubricant+magic and you get volatile-fluid that is heated.

*edit
screenshot features the new UC2-recipes - without energy this looks a little OP. but it's a current supported cycle. also shows rotated rensuir-turbine.

*note, the heavy-oil -> lubricant - cycle won't work as shown, because the Cimota Restructor sucks all heavy-oil that can reach.

[Fatmice]

Yuoki, you should know that the code in control.lua for the new engines will produce an error when you mine the new engines. The error will crash your game if you acknowledge it, i.e. clicking "OK". If you simply hit the Esc key, you can get pass the error without crashing. This is the same error that is produced when you mine the Nuclear Fission Reactor from UraniumMod. Since you adapted his code to your own use, which still had the error, you now have to fix it to adapt to the player index requirement.

Also, the degree symbol does not appear in the game so you see "60x produce 190" or "120x produce 240" instead of what's in the

[recipe-name]
y-e1-recipe=produce 190°C Steam
y-e2-recipe=produce 240°C Steam
y-e3-recipe=produce Hydraulic-Fluid

I think you meant this actually.

[recipe-name]
y-e1-recipe=190°C Steam
y-e2-recipe=240°C Steam
y-e3-recipe=Hydraulic Fluid

Which should display in game properly as "60x 190°C Steam", "120x 240°C Steam", and "100x Hydraulic Fluid" if unicode is supported, but I do not think it is supported yet.

I took the liberty to modified some locale name/descriptions.

item-names.cfg

Code: Select all

[item-name]

[item-description]

[fluid-name]
y-steam-low=Low-Pressure Steam
y-fluid-hydraulic=High-Pressure Volatile Fluid

[fluid-description]
y-steam-low=Low-Pressure Steam
y-fluid-hydraulic=High-Pressure Volatile Fluid; After Expansion It's Gone

entity-names.cfg

Code: Select all

[entity-name]
y-sfe=Solid-Fuel Steam Engine
y-ffe=Liquid-Fuel Steam Engine
y-hfe=Liquid-Fuel Volatile Engine

[entity-description]

recipe-names.cfg

Code: Select all

[recipe-name]
y-e1-recipe=190C Steam
y-e2-recipe=240C Steam
y-e3-recipe=Volatile Fluid

[recipe-description]
y-e1-recipe=Low-Pressure 190C Steam
y-e2-recipe=Low-Pressure 240C Steam
y-e3-recipe=Volatile Fluid

Also, while the engine said it support modules and has module slots, you can not slot any modules into them! This has always been a problem with most yuoki machines that used assembly-prototype. If you don't intend that they can be slotted with modules, I suggest you remove that section from each of the engine's prototype.

[YuokiTani]

Yuoki, you should know that the code in control.lua for the new engines will produce an error when you mine the new engines. The error will crash your game if you acknowledge it, i.e. clicking "OK". If you simply hit the Esc key, you can get pass the error without crashing. This is the same error that is produced when you mine the Nuclear Fission Reactor from UraniumMod. Since you adapted his code to your own use, which still had the error, you now have to fix it to adapt to the player index requirement.
...

that's terrible !
- let's begin with last point - not all module allowed, but the game don't show which is allowed. same behavior in vanilla for mining-drills and assamblys, but i think speed is always taken - i check this again, and for engine would be removed (they are overpowered enough)
- i change the descriptions with your suggestions
- the code is a problem, because in my testings it works fine, you recieve a removed message. i take the code (with permission) because looks simple and was functional, i also review this.

have you done some math or messure ?

[YuokiTani]

new versions encounter

changed little things in yi-engines maybe it helps to fix problems. still placeholder-gfx for the engines ... yi_engines_0.0.3.zip download

because i believe in yi-engines and get this working i had integrate the generators in main-wip-mod ^^
maybe to OP but difficult recipes so it's ok - i think.
you can arrange these electrical-generators who you like, but they consume a lot of energy-fluid (water, steam, whatever) so keep this in mind. the benefit is huge because the output-range is from 550 kW - 700 kW per Tile (yes 32x32 px). some builds are shown below, and how it looks then they generate energy. more details in the actual value-sheet.

Screenshot shows Tiny/Small Generator and Big Generator (named ingame T.T and N.S) (the hole is to see through and the center spinning, but the fan also spins, to indicate working)

the T.T spins not at full speed ... the N.S does (i think)


Sample Layout ... you can use 2 Reds, but 3 SFE can't keep the flow (21 MW - at 100% load) so i take one step back and runs now with ~ 14 MW. Also for the other Engines you need to solve all Pipe-Lines, but you got the idea.


planed changes ...
- because this generators can handle all fluids, and looks nice, i will take out the small-steam-engine in all variants.
- power-plant and generators stays in, rensiur-turbine (removed later or overhaul, but rensuir stays in)
- the oldest, classic and as first generator implemented steam-turbine becomes and overhaul, and new stats.
- and of course yi-engines need animations, and the substation-st-a and ... oh thats a long list

[L0771]

These graphics are better than the originals

[Fatmice]

Hi Yuoki,

I spent quite a bit of time fiddling with the yi_engines_0.0.3. The FFE and FHE are essentially efficient electric boilers while the SFE is a very efficient boiler. In terms of space, it would seem though that only the SFE and FFE are practical for use since the footprint of the support buildings will be less than the FHE due to its over the top use of lubricant. This means in terms of energy input, the upkeep is higher for the FHE while not generating more power than FFE.

These are builds that I've come up that will maximize the generation output of each engine type. FFE and FHE are similar in output capacity, ~16 MW, while SFE, maximum of ~6.5 MW, is most efficient in terms of unicomp usage to power ratio. The oil refinery supporting the FFE requires a tier 1 speed module. All supporting buildings are slotted with tier 3 efficiency modules to minimize upkeep where upkeep is FHE>FFE>SFE. The SFE build is stable indefinitely while FFE and FHE builds are quasi-stable as long as power consumption is less than theoretical maximum. If the supporting buildings for the FFE and FHE are powered by solar power then they will be stable indefinitely.

New-Engines_1.jpg (842.71 KiB) Viewed 10776 times

There is an odd electrical grid glitch where FFE is still in the FHE electrical network although they are separate electrical network at the moment this screenshot was taken.

New-Engines_2.jpg (579.54 KiB) Viewed 10776 times

While playing around, I also found some graphical glitches with the cimotas. When the output pipe is rotated north, when the building is animating, you can see some clipping of the piston with the pipe.

New-Engines_3.jpg (455.34 KiB) Viewed 10776 times

Also, not obvious from these screenshot, there is a small bug/glitch where you need to rotate the SFE, FFE, or FHE a full 360 degree for them to generate steam/volatile fluid if you mine and replace their downstream power generators. SFE, FFE, and FHE are not blueprintable yet as they generate the fluid with the default_temperature(105C for steam and 25 for volatile fluid) when placed by drones. There are some formulas that I used to calculate the power output as well as fluid usage. It might be useful for balance purposes (FHE needs buffing). The Rensuir generator don't need further balancing imo.

Code: Select all

P_max=(544/6)(fluid_usage_per_tick)(60 ticks)(effectivity)

* P_max is the power generated in KW from converting whatever fluid at maximum performance.
* fluid_usage_per_tick and effectivity are taken from lua files as defined by the mod author for their particular engines.
* 544/6 is the maximum energy conversion rate of the game, ~90.6 KJ/s.

                                         P_max
Actual-Fluid-usage-per-second= ------------------------
               [(heat_capacity)(Fluid-temperature - default_temperature)]

* This is the actual fluid usage rate by the generator in the game when working.
* heat_capacity and default-temperature are taken from lua files as defined by the mod author for that particular fluid.
* Fluid-temperature is the current fluid temperature value, it could be lower than the maximum value defined for that fluid.

The save game that was used to take these screenshot is somehow corrupted at the moment so I can't share them. If I'm successful in recovering it, I will share the save game so you can take a look for yourself in-game. I still need to do a measurement of energy equivalent for unicomp.

[YuokiTani]

Hi Yuoki,

I spent quite a bit of time fiddling with the yi_engines_0.0.3. The FFE and FHE are essentially efficient electric boilers while the SFE is a very efficient boiler. In terms of space, it would seem though that only the SFE and FFE are practical for use since the footprint of the support buildings will be less than the FHE due to its over the top use of lubricant. This means in terms of energy input, the upkeep is higher for the FHE while not generating more power than FFE.

i hope with joy - for the FHE i search a solution, the initial idea was to use all lubricant or heavy-oil that in normal game would be storeage in tanks or refined to petroleum-gas - and make so all outputs more useful. theoretical i can switch to petroleum-gas as gas-fired-engine - but i think it's the wrong way. so the FHE needs a better working-recipe or i change the max.temp of volatile-fluid ... if you have a suggestion for a good fluid-mixing-recipe let me know.

These are builds that I've come up that will maximize the generation output of each engine type. FFE and FHE are similar in output capacity, ~16 MW, while SFE, maximum of ~6.5 MW, is most efficient in terms of unicomp usage to power ratio. The oil refinery supporting the FFE requires a tier 1 speed module. All supporting buildings are slotted with tier 3 efficiency modules to minimize upkeep where upkeep is FHE>FFE>SFE. The SFE build is stable indefinitely while FFE and FHE builds are quasi-stable as long as power consumption is less than theoretical maximum. If the supporting buildings for the FFE and FHE are powered by solar power then they will be stable indefinitely.

yep, different power-networks needed. or some other backup to get started again. especially if you use the electric-water-gen to produce the water. this 16 MW are gross or net ? - a stable-cycle or nearly-stable sounds good. i love the unicomp, but maybe this makes all things to easy. broken down to vanilla-game-mechanics this are very expensive solar-panels ^^ - but less space consuming. i should make the gfx to look fancy and give this a build-reason.

While playing around, I also found some graphical glitches with the cimotas. When the output pipe is rotated north, when the building is animating, you can see some clipping of the piston with the pipe.

yep ... the fluid-recipe came later over the cimotas - need overhaul.

Also, not obvious from these screenshot, there is a small bug/glitch where you need to rotate the SFE, FFE, or FHE a full 360 degree for them to generate steam/volatile fluid if you mine and replace their downstream power generators. SFE, FFE, and FHE are not blueprintable yet as they generate the fluid with the default_temperature(105C for steam and 25 for volatile fluid) when placed by drones. There are some formulas that I used to calculate the power output as well as fluid usage. It might be useful for balance purposes (FHE needs buffing). The Rensuir generator don't need further balancing imo.

bad news, i need review this in code. against blueprints i think i'am helpless, needs i think much more code ...

The save game that was used to take these screenshot is somehow corrupted at the moment so I can't share them. If I'm successful in recovering it, I will share the save game so you can take a look for yourself in-game. I still need to do a measurement of energy equivalent for unicomp.

^^ you are not alone ... after save i reload ... if it works i quit the game, if not - load autosave and try it again ... and again ... or shit happens ... looks like the game need time to save, because if you wait after save with quit, magic happens and savegame load ... sometimes ^^

there is no real equivalent because i keep it simple and would it interchangeable with other mods. you can change 20 stone/iron-ore/copper-ore into 20 wood = 80 MJ or 20 coal = 160 MJ. the UC-cost in value-sheet counts only raw-material not the energy to produce this is intention, because solar-planels. also 2 recipes that turns wood into petroleum-gas and coal to oil are aviable. but if you found a good math i will use it to rebalance.

and Thanks for your testing and posts

[YuokiTani]

These graphics are better than the originals

Thank You ! - i try to get better, last try's below

yi-engines step up to 0.0.4 -> download

last time i played, i would set a outpost in the middle of nowhere - without water and far far away from the main base ... so i miss electricity (solar is cheating, consumes to much space and is ugly in real world ^^). now this times are over. yi-developed a new engine (don't blame me i know a real stirling-engine works) - so it's now possible to produce energy from solid-multitype-fuel, through heating air only (~80% fuel-efficency). tanks can used for better power-out balance.

there is another added option to change solar-power into power for later use -> fluid-accu-power. a full tank (2.5K) equals ~450 MJ stored power with electrical-air-heater. without any beacons the system don't run it's self. It's up to you which backup you prefer. fluid-accu-power can run longer, or give instant more power and it's working with all generators.

as before many gfx are temporary ...
one except the stirling-engine (maybe renamed later) - only 1 pipe needed - other only for testing ingame view.


next version Yuoki-Industries 0.2.19 - please prepare
- battery recipes changed - please use all old (also all old hydrogen-cells and other stuff without recipes)
- dirt renamed, so needs new produced - also recipe changed
- arch-site recipe removed -> dirt-digging now with special-drill
- accumulators changed in capacity and load/unload-rates and recipes.

*edit MEZ 22:44
updated gfx - same *.zip
- the whole hot-air-concept leads back to roots, because a machine can intake-air and vanilla-boiler can heat them for use in regular generators. sure cheap idea, but water independent - maybe this is the better way.

[Airat9000]

Yuoki

I have an idea, what if to exclude from the recipe iron and copper. and add your resources as a basis for the production of. that is, simply remove the excess.

[Despy]

I really love this mod and I agree with this, maybe use normal iron and copper but more quantity

Yuoki

I have an idea, what if to exclude from the recipe iron and copper. and add your resources as a basis for the production of. that is, simply remove the excess.

[YuokiTani]

Yuoki
I have an idea, what if to exclude from the recipe iron and copper. and add your resources as a basis for the production of. that is, simply remove the excess.

i know, as i read this post and from Despy i get an idea for a temorary solution to simplify that process and shall come in next version. beside that you play a old version - i think - because the tank hotbar-slot-2 is removed by change to factorio 11.X (or 10.9 ?).

i've played yesterday about 10 hours ^^ - and i get in different games always a automated cycle for these items, but its to hard to fully automate.

[Fatmice]

LOL...You named one after me.

And for the honor, a ratio of 4:3 Air heater engine to steam-generator will yield positive generation cycle.

Here's a setup that gives 1.728 MW of excess generation. Beacons filled with Efficiency module 3s

Fatmice.jpg (771.69 KiB) Viewed 10613 times

Fatmice-2.jpg (622.96 KiB) Viewed 10613 times

[YuokiTani]

LOL...You named one after me.
And for the honor, a ratio of 4:3 Air heater engine to steam-generator will yield positive generation cycle.
Here's a setup that gives 1.728 MW of excess generation. Beacons filled with Efficiency module 3s

yep, you researched the Infinite-Working-Cycle - so it's only fair - name it after you

i have try this in my game-world but i had problems to get the right setup and transfer the excess. it's so balanced that only with beacons a plus of energy is possible. i used EM-2 always 2 pieces but it's struggles and i can with 8 FCE to only ~ 600 kW plus energy (i used buffer-tanks). but sure better then nothing it's more a mid/late game tech to experiment with. ironicly i needed a better excess because all my solid-fuels are burned out ... and solar (damn) only gives ~ 12 MW in my world but needed ~ 30 MW ... Now i will try your setup, looks promising.
notice: system needs alway kickstarted to run !

perhaps some changes next version (sure it's the wip-thread ^^) because starholme had make new better looking code to experiment with.

[Fatmice]

yep, you researched the Infinite-Working-Cycle - so it's only fair - name it after you

i have try this in my game-world but i had problems to get the right setup and transfer the excess. it's so balanced that only with beacons a plus of energy is possible. i used EM-2 always 2 pieces but it's struggles and i can with 8 FCE to only ~ 600 kW plus energy (i used buffer-tanks). but sure better then nothing it's more a mid/late game tech to experiment with. ironicly i needed a better excess because all my solid-fuels are burned out ... and solar (damn) only gives ~ 12 MW in my world but needed ~ 30 MW ... Now i will try your setup, looks promising.
notice: system needs alway kickstarted to run !

perhaps some changes next version (sure it's the wip-thread ^^) because starholme had make new better looking code to experiment with.

You must use EM-3 or my build will not work. You can jump start with just one solar panel I think. The smallest build that is still energy positive is 2 beacons (4 EM-3) arranged so that 4 Air-heater-generator is affected (-80% energy consumption) and 3 steam-engine.