[0.17.1] The three undestructable non-recipe-changeable differently-feeded buildings in new tutorial might be confusing

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Aardwolf
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[0.17.1] The three undestructable non-recipe-changeable differently-feeded buildings in new tutorial might be confusing

Post by Aardwolf »

Hi,

I'm an old time player so I don't know how a new player would truly experience this, but I think the three non destructible buildings in which you cannot change the recipe could confusing because they're the first such buildings you see yet they behave different than the real thing.

The first assemtly machine you get your hands on gives the misleading impression that: you cannot change recipes in it (since it's disabled in them), and, that you can't destruct them.

The feeders or loaders are confusing because those don't exist in the real game, yet this is the first method the tutorial shows as way of getting resources in the building.

The lab is confusing because it doesn't use electricity.

I think it's less confusing if the tutorial-campaign uses only buildings that behave like the real thing... because now you'd learn something that then soon becomes invalid

Just an observation. Maybe new players in reality don't have problems with it, in that case, no problem :)

EDIT: how about the following idea: instead of sending those iron and copper plates to those buildings that then auto-repair, how about sending them to the ship's reactor instead to repair that one first (after all, that's obviously a non-standard building so not confusing if it behaves differently), and then once you have the reactor, you have an electricity source and can use it to bootstrap *regular* assembly machines and lab?

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Re: [0.17.1] The three undestructable non-recipe-changeable differently-feeded buildings in new tutorial might be confus

Post by BlueTemplar »

Wait, don't you need to connect the lab to that accu-frankenssubstation for it to work ?

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Re: [0.17.1] The three undestructable non-recipe-changeable differently-feeded buildings in new tutorial might be confus

Post by Sauerkraut »

Yeah, I agree. The fixed assemblers and the lab are really weird and teach you nothing about how actual assembly machines work.

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Re: [0.17.1] The three undestructable non-recipe-changeable differently-feeded buildings in new tutorial might be confus

Post by Serenity »

Electricity works fine. But it abuses a substation to act as both an energy provider and distributor. Maybe instead have the substation being a regular item for its reach. And then add an additional infinite accumulator

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Re: [0.17.1] The three undestructable non-recipe-changeable differently-feeded buildings in new tutorial might be confus

Post by Khaim »

I very much agree with OP: everything in the tutorial which exists in Freeplay should behave exactly the same. That shouldn't actually restrict anything.

The tutorial needs an assembler that can't be removed, has a fixed recipe, and requires no power? Sure! Just make it obviously different from the normal assembler. If possible, make it a clearly tutorial-only building. Of course, this is also a good opportunity to revisit the design goals and see if you really need to change so many mechanics.

For this specific case, here's what I'd suggest:
  • Create a distinct graphical "rooted" state for things the tutorial won't let you pick up. It doesn't have to be literal roots (although that's not a terrible idea), but something which expresses the idea that this thing is locked down more than usual. You're going to use this concept repeatedly in the tutorial; it's probably worth the effort to ensure the player understands what's going on.
  • Allow the player to change the recipe. They'll only have two choices, and the wrong one won't do anything. You could add a reminder to change it back if you're really worried about this.
  • Requires-no-power should probably be replaced with infinite-power-supply. This has several advantages: it gives the player an example of how power poles work; it moves the "magic" to a single, clearly tutorial-only object (some kind of super fusion reactor, maybe); and it's something which can be used again in the tutorial to power other things. Note that they don't have to pay attention to the power poles since they're already set up - but if they do, it's set up correctly.

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Re: [0.17.1] The three undestructable non-recipe-changeable differently-feeded buildings in new tutorial might be confus

Post by TheRaph »

I very much disagree.

It is fully normal, that in a "campaign" (this is not stated as "tutorial") some buildings exist which are special and not available in free play.
(Did you ever play C&C TS?)

This special assemblers are colored in red (not available in free play) so they may differ in behavior.
Also the gray squares on the floor underneath the special buildings show, that they are special. I think the graphics of gray squares will change to something wich looks more like starship parts.

Same for loaders. I think the will get a better shape in future.

I was very fine with that, because I makes things easier (no need for electricity) . And I think you will learn the differences to normal game very quick.

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Re: [0.17.1] The three undestructable non-recipe-changeable differently-feeded buildings in new tutorial might be confus

Post by sunnyskies »

One of the first things I did on starting up the new campaign was try to interact with every single object that could be interacted with. Loaders, broken machines, scrap, trees, the furnaces and chest i crafted, and the huge rocks on the north cliff (one of them can be mined; the others are too far away). I found a very obvious pattern in that everything with a gray square could not be picked up and eventually changed state as the scenario progressed. Temporary.

And anything without a gray square was mine. Made with my own hands, lovingly placed and replaced as I whimmed.

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Re: [0.17.1] The three undestructable non-recipe-changeable differently-feeded buildings in new tutorial might be confus

Post by ManaUser »

I agree with postponing teaching electricity generation, the reasons given in the FFF make sense. Setting up an electric station is actually one of the trickier things for a new player (I remember having a hard time with it) and at the same time it really isn't as integral to the game compared to automated crafting. So the the basic idea of giving you a free power source at the start is a good one I think, but I would prefer they they kept things working as close to normal play as possible otherwise. As such I do tend to agree that the red assembling machines are weird. And the loaders even more so.

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Re: [0.17.1] The three undestructable non-recipe-changeable differently-feeded buildings in new tutorial might be confus

Post by bbgun06 »

It must demonstrate the open design gameplay of Freeplay.
Nothing that I add should affect the Freeplay experience.
The demo/tutorial should have exactly the same mechanics as vanilla Factorio.
Instead of the loader, just say, "You connected the belts, now put an inserter here."
Have an electric station already in place.
If the player removes the wrong assembler, (or changes the recipe) simply prompt him to put it back. You could even reward the player by saying, "Good job figuring out [X]! To continue, do [Y]"

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Re: [0.17.1] The three undestructable non-recipe-changeable differently-feeded buildings in new tutorial might be confus

Post by tchaypo »

I haven't played Factorio for a while; picked it up again tonight and decide to try out the NPE. I'm running 0.17.7.

The three undestructable non-recipe-changeable differently-feeded buildings in the new tutorial were confusing. Also, they were annoying.

First up, the annoyance: you get told to "feed 50 iron" or whatever, and you do that.. and then the loader and those 50 iron go away. Then you have to produce cogs... which means more iron.. but now I'm annoyed that the 50 iron I already produce just vanished.

I'm not sure how clear it would be to a new player that a coal inserter can take the place of the feeder that just vanished...

But the confusion came about at the point when I had to build circuits. I'd just created my first Assempber, and set it to building circuits.. and then realised I needed wire as an input. I know wire needs copper so I went to grab some copper from the belt. Then I realised I couldn't make wire by hand, I need to use an assembler. So I went to change production on the assember beside me, since it already had a copper feed and wasn't being used to make science, thinking that I'd make just enough wire to be able to make just enough chips to be able to make another assembler... but then I couldn't figure out how to change the recipe.

In hindsight, I realise this is because I was looking at one of the undestructable non-recipe-changeable differently-feeded buildings; if I'd looked at the assembler I'd built, I might have figured out what the circular-arrow button does, perhaps. But in this case, because I'd looked at one of the three undestructable non-recipe-changeable differently-feeded buildings first, I ended up not being able to figure out how to change the recipe even when I was looking at the right assembler. I ended up mining the assembler and rebuilding it just to change the recipe so I could get it to build some wire.

it seems like it's pretty easy to get into this situation, where you need *two* assemblers - one to make wire and the second to make circuits - but you can't build the second assembler until you have the circuits. If the concept of changing recipes isn't taught by then, it's going to be hard to figure out what to do.



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BTW, I am perfectly fine with the NPE being different from regular gameplay. It makes sense to me: at the start of the NPE the crashed ship is still functioning, just a little bit, just enough to rescue a few scraps of knowledge out of it and make plans for rebuilding a technological base. As parts of the ship begin to fail, they have to be replaced with whatever can be built locally, and then gradually the tech builds back up towards that level again.

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Re: [0.17.1] The three undestructable non-recipe-changeable differently-feeded buildings in new tutorial might be confus

Post by TheRaph »

Yes, I think you're right, they should get you the information how to change recipes.
Because with limited capability to handcraft everything you need, progression may be hard.

But that's not founded in existence of special buildings, it's founded in limited handcrafting in combination with not to teach how to use standard assembler.

May be you miss to rescue some extra green circuits from the ship wreck on the left?

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Re: [0.17.1] The three undestructable non-recipe-changeable differently-feeded buildings in new tutorial might be confus

Post by abregado »

I think many of these problems will be solved when we have the final art for the special structures. These will not look like their vanilla counterparts, but have some similar elements. They will also look like they cannot be removed.

The other issues should be solved when the Assembling machine GUI is done. Currently the "Change recipe" button looks like an item slot and nobody ever sees it (even veterans as a lot of them select the recipe once after placing and then use copy paste).

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