Crafting tabs in the inventory screen

[ficolas]

Finding stufc in the crafting screen, is easy, but with the upcoming updates and mods im sure it wont be so easy, so the crafting should be divided in "Turrets", "Machines"...
And the posibility to add more with json files

[iammincho]

Or adding a search function can be usefull

[kovarex]

This would be useful, mainly in the future, we agreed that we will do it (someday) moved to the new accepted suggestions category.

[Machtl]

I would propose a fixed position for recipes, so you don't need to seek the entire dialogue for a recipe when you start a new game.

[ficolas]

What do you mean?

[MF-]

I know what he means.. Recipes shuffle around each time you unlock more recipes.
It would be nice if I didn't have to search for the items again and again after each research that unlocks recipes.

[kopema]

Actually I like seeing everything all in one box. The problem is that after a lot of research, there are just too many different variants to sort through.

Would it be practicable to leave the recipe box looking pretty much like it does now, but make it so you could right-click the icon for each type of item and get a pulldown of all its variants?

For example, there'd be one icon for Inserters; right click on it, and you'd open up a line of boxes for Burner Inserters, Fast Inserters, etc. And maybe wichever one was the last you picked would stay up as the current icon so you could just left-click it once to get another of that type.

Also it would be neat if the action bar at the bottom of the screen worked the same way. That thing gets filled up WAY too early, and going to the recipe screen so frequently is a real pain. Personally, I think tabs in the recipe or inventory screens would actually make that situation worse. However, with right-clicking in the tool bar, you'd almost never have to leave the play screen.

Even the inventory screen could be set up that way. In order to keep the game balanced, you might have to reduce the number of spaces a bit. (Or maybe not; as the game expands the Inventory screen starts getting pretty crowded even without construction materials!) But either way it would simplify the interface and allow you to make the icons larger and maybe more distinctive as your artwork improves.

[MF-]

Hmm.. having one icon for all inserters could work...
I am not sure if other items could be "compressed" that way.. Maybe. I haven't checked.

@hotbar size.
I believe that the hotbar size is appropriate.
One set of 10 things isn't enough for covering any situation of course. That is normal.

[FreeER]

Checked the roadmap and it doesn't seem to mention anything, but um if we can't get this in 0.4 could we at least get categories by the mod name that added the item/research in 0.5? Pretty Please?

organize inventory.png (634.41 KiB) Viewed 18536 times

Filter menu...

organize filters.png (1.42 MiB) Viewed 18536 times

organize tech.png (587.08 KiB) Viewed 18536 times

and we are still getting new mods and the current mods are still being added to

[ficolas]

I think I will add something similar to my mod, since it is possible to hide researchs, but is not a priority, and it would be better if it was in the "vanilla" game

[Flowkap]

+1 for the tabs

[ssilk]

This is a very long posting. In short it says
1. Distinct between research and planning by showing only the things, that can be researched at this time and create a new planning-tree. For more details see down.
2. Enable to built up things on the map by just placing them on the map, even if you currently don't have it. This is like getting credit and speeds up the game.
3. Clean up the built-window by removing/hiding unneded things and/or by making a new tab? The player can place only the stuff in, he currently needs. Or he can switch between domains - see below.
4. Distinct between things, which can be placed on map and things that aren't. This affords some other changes in the game, which will make it more playable.


And here my elongate thoughts to the above stuff. I didn't delete it because it explains how I did come to the above suggestions.

A) you cannot see the hole research tree. Instead, you see only the inventions you can make now. All other research is not shown or may be shown with different filter-buttons.
B) so, you can't see here, which research must be done to build for example rockets. It's just the research and no mixed in planning-tool.
C) To be able to do planning, another view/tree exists, which I would call "planning tree". This tree shows which number of resources are needed to create an item. Of course, a needed resource is not only the number of coals or ore, it's also the kind of research needed for that, which - as you know - needs also resources.
Explain on rocket: to build a rocket you need many resources. And some research. To create the research, many other ressources and research must be done.
D) main view of the planning tree you see only the current selected item and which other items are needed to build it.
E) you can zoom out by reducing detail to see, which possibilities you have.

I also have some other ideas depending how to built something:
A) after an our of play, you won't need some items any more. Coal driven mines for example. They can be hidden.
B) to built a belt I currently need to ... Built it and then select it and then place it. Why not just select and place it and then it is automatically built? I don't see the real difference from the view of the game itself. And it speeds the things so much up. You can place power lines, even if you don't have any yet. They are automatically added to your built-lane and if they are ready,they are mysterically placed. Just shortens built-up - if you don't have the resources, they can't be built of course.
C) a new view in the built-screen can be filled with the items, the player mainly uses. The first five in this view can be built by pressing Ctrl 1-5 ...
D) why not make it domain-driven? You want to build energy? You see pipes, pumps, simple inserters, power plants... Want to create production? You see belts (can switch through available speeds), factories, inserters... Want to mine? Miners, belts,... Trains? Weapons? Maybe every view is configurable during the game...


This brings me to the built-lane (?) at the bottom of the screen. It ain't useful. Because the order of it changes too automagically. Pressing Q once too often or forgot to press: ups the sorting has changed. My thoughts here are: you can built things to PLACE them on the map and others you just need to built things or to make things work. For example a power line makes no sense not to placed on the map. Ammo makes no sense to be placed on the map, it must be placed in a tower to make it work. So it makes much sense to make a difference between these items. In a typical built-up-game you would have an icon "built factory" or something. If it was built, you can place it. And in the ammo menu (not here yet) you produce ammo.
I won't recommend this for factorio, I would like to have it as explained, this is more like supreme commander: plan to built something and some times later it is placed. Because currently it is built, built, wait, wait, place, place. Remove the wait wait.

[FreeER]

1. Distinct between research and planning by showing only the things, that can be researched at this time and create a new planning-tree. For more details see down.

I don't think we need two trees one for what you can research and one to 'plan' your research. It is easy enough right now to read the descriptions of the research and see what it needs/unlocks and if you want to actually research it. Though I like the idea of a filter to only show what you can currently research.

2. Enable to built up things on the map by just placing them on the map, even if you currently don't have it. This is like getting credit and speeds up the game.

This defeats the idea of a 'survivor', a person can not place something they do not have and have it magically appear later. Now if we had robots that would build entities from plans that we placed I'd be fine with it.

3. Clean up the built-window by removing/hiding unneded things and/or by making a new tab? The player can place only the stuff in, he currently needs. Or he can switch between domains - see below.

The idea that I think most people have is that the devs would create several tabs along the lines of "power related items-pump/steam engine/solar panel", "transport items-belts/inserters", "weapons-guns/ammo", "production-assemblers/furnaces/drills", "miscellaneous-everything else". Though I admit it would be nice if we could move items we do not use to another tab/menu so they do not crowd the window. Which I think was what you were saying with D2, but I'm not 100% certain

4. Distinct between things, which can be placed on map and things that aren't. This affords some other changes in the game, which will make it more playable.

If you are talking about creating tabs in the crafting window, I don't think organizing the crafting window is this clear cut, especially when you add mods into the equation. If all you do is seperate between items that have entities and items without entities eventually you are still going to have too many items in one and/or the other to sort them and you are back to the same problem.

This brings me to the built-lane (?) at the bottom of the screen.

If you mean the quickbar (aka hotbar) you can use the middle mouse to create a filter so that, for instance, slot 1 can only hold transport belts. This prevents the order changing 'automagically', though I have never had this problem unless I ran out of something and didn't notice that I had so that something else took it's place (and that is not a problem if you set filters).

currently it is built, built, wait, wait, place, place. Remove the wait wait.

If this is how you feel I would suggest that you wait for creative/god mod to remove the wait, I believe the fmod is adding something to help with this. Or learn how to use the console to give you the items you want, no more wait simply place place place place done, admire, restart
Part of the fun in Factorio (for me) is that it lets you feel like you are actually having to set everything up yourself, though I personally do not want to end the game still having to do everything myself, I mean the point is automation after all. Now I wouldn't mind a nice god/creative mode to play with but I do not want that to be how the main story plays out (if I did I could go play my old copies of Command and Conquer or creative minecraft) Just my views

[ssilk]

2. Enable to built up things on the map by just placing them on the map, even if you currently don't have it. This is like getting credit and speeds up the game.

This defeats the idea of a 'survivor', a person can not place something they do not have and have it magically appear later. Now if we had robots that would build entities from plans that we placed I'd be fine with it.

I'm with you. I think for this in later gameplay to speed it up. You may first research it, or you need some robots to built it, or there are many possibilities here... . I think the concepts of Siedler 1-3 or Supreme Commander fits really nice in a later technocratic game style.

3. Clean up the built-window by removing/hiding unneded things and/or by making a new tab? The player can place only the stuff in, he currently needs. Or he can switch between domains - see below.

The idea that I think most people have is that the devs would create several tabs along the lines of "power related items-pump/steam engine/solar panel", "transport items-belts/inserters", "weapons-guns/ammo", "production-assemblers/furnaces/drills", "miscellaneous-everything else". Though I admit it would be nice if we could move items we do not use to another tab/menu so they do not crowd the window. Which I think was what you were saying with D2, but I'm not 100% certain

Reducing items enables to reduce complexity.

For example: I see no need to distinct between belts and underground belts or faster belts. They do all the same. And there are so many things you need to build just to make a belt, that I really don't like them in this way (I like the principle of it really really much, but not how to built it). Ok, you can built a belt in this complex way one times in a game, but then there is no more sense in it! It doesn't bring the game forward to distinct between all those different parts to built just a belt.

And to make constructive critics:
1. In the first step you can built just simple belts. Nothing more. How it is built is a matter of another topic.
2. You invent the underground belt. But you don't need to have special parts for that! To make the entry of an underground belt just needs two (three?) normal belts. No extra part.
3. In the next step you can invent a faster belt. But you can just built only simple belts.
4. The trick is now, that you upgrade it: go to the belt, press U for upgrade and the rest is done in background. How could it be easier.

This brings the game more forward! Building up all those little things which blockades the inventory because you have built too much of them doesn't. Or which sense makes it to built a factory only for underground belts? Factories are good for mass-production. Not for items, which can be used only once. So the game must be trimmed for mass-production and not producing many little complex things.

4. Distinct between things, which can be placed on map and things that aren't. This affords some other changes in the game, which will make it more playable.

If you are talking about creating tabs in the crafting window, I don't think organizing the crafting window is this clear cut, especially when you add mods into the equation. If all you do is seperate between items that have entities and items without entities eventually you are still going to have too many items in one and/or the other to sort them and you are back to the same problem.

If you distinct between items, you can place on the map and those, which aren't (and there are many other ways of reduction thinkable, take this just as an example!) then you reduce the irregular/useless options for the player. Reduction means not less fantasy! Reduction means: Live with the limits and create ideas to live with it. Factorio is very much like this and there are many ideas, you can try out. But my experience shows clearly, that you can build up a house with just one part of lego-stones. Think for minecraft. Reduction forces creativity!

This brings me to the built-lane (?) at the bottom of the screen.

If you mean the quickbar (aka hotbar) you can use the middle mouse to create a filter so that,

So I have also a Mac. And now?

for instance, slot 1 can only hold transport belts. This prevents the order changing 'automagically', though I have never had this problem unless I ran out of something and didn't notice that I had so that something else took it's place (and that is not a problem if you set filters).

I really don't like to look, if I have enough item XXX left. It doesn't bring the game forward!

I have a problem. I need a soltion. I plan. I want to built it and <booooooinnngg> there are no power supply left. I first need to built up power lines. Shit, I produce currently ammo. Should I clear that? Or wait until it's ready? By the way: I don't have enough ammo left. Why didn't the game produce ammo until I have enough? Ok, I have my power supply ready! Uhhhmmmm, what did I want to built?
Do you understand: This brings me out of the flow and the idea is away. And that's the worst thing you can do in any kind of game.
I think, the game should support me with tools and micromanaging - not from beginning, but the longer I play, or how I configure it.
And this idea fits also with your idea of really beeing a survivor. Think of Robinson Crusoe: In the beginning he had also just some chests etc. But the longer he lived on the island he made it more comfortably for him. This should be with the game itself: When I play it, I can invent things to make it more playable. I think this is a great concept/idea, because it lets you choose, if you want to micromange it or not! In multiplayer, this can be a very strategic element!

The "domain-idea" (a set of items and special built-functions to create a special thing) is also more "mod"-friedly and is better usable in the future. For example a mod implements airplanes. Then you need to build up airplanes, airports etc.

currently it is built, built, wait, wait, place, place. Remove the wait wait.

If this is how you feel I would suggest that you wait for creative/god mod to remove the wait, I believe the fmod is adding something to help with this. Or learn how to use the console to give you the items you want, no more wait simply place place place place done, admire, restart
Part of the fun in Factorio (for me) is that it lets you feel like you are actually having to set everything up yourself, though I personally do not want to end the game still having to do everything myself, I mean the point is automation after all. Now I wouldn't mind a nice god/creative mode to play with but I do not want that to be how the main story plays out (if I did I could go play my old copies of Command and Conquer or creative minecraft) Just my views

I like this feeling too, but after some time I just think: no, not again! I want to build, I want to manage, not to run around and catch ressources and click thousand times here and there and wait wait.
It not Super Mario ! For a multiplayer game for example the game must speed up very, very much. Currently it takes too long to get from "nothing" to a working factory and it's much too complicated to handle different development-strategies.


But it's much too early to really point to special things. I recommend just the things above, because they will give more options for the future, not less, which is very important in this state of development.

I see the single player mode as a place, where you can put all those long-term things in. But for multiplayer I see a limit of about 1 hour in the worst case to bring the game to and end and that's a long way from here.

[FreeER]

Now that I understand a bit more what you were saying I find it hard to argue

So I have also a Mac. And now?

The devs didn't provide another way? Well, bug them until they do I would think it would be relatively simple for them to add a method for a Mac user to use the filters And to be honest I play on my laptop with a touchpad, no middle click either

I really don't like to look, if I have enough item XXX left

If I remember correctly the logistics robots were originally intended to resupply the player, this would be nice Though if that is all they did they should perhaps be easier to research A shame the devs haven't managed this quite yet.

[MF-]

The devs didn't provide another way? Well, bug them until they do I would think it would be relatively simple for them to add a method for a Mac user to use the filters And to be honest I play on my laptop with a touchpad, no middle click either

laptop touchpads can be usually setup to emulate the middle click by hitting both buttons at once, or by tapping a touchpad corner, or by hitting the surface by three fingers at once

[MF-]

@ ssilk
Your last message was too long for individual replies to each..
I don't like any automatic character movement and placing fictitious items.
Neither I support crafting with intermediate steps removed.
(I don't recall what was the rest of the post about, sorry)

If there is a tech that does same, I guess it could work.

[kovarex]

The devs didn't provide another way? Well, bug them until they do I would think it would be relatively simple for them to add a method for a Mac user to use the filters

Middle mouse button is just the default option, you can change it in controls.

[ssilk]

Now that I understand a bit more what you were saying I find it hard to argue

I really don't like to look, if I have enough item XXX left

If I remember correctly the logistics robots were originally intended to resupply the player, this would be nice Though if that is all they did they should perhaps be easier to research A shame the devs haven't managed this quite yet.

Logistic robot.... yes.!! +1!!!

This afternoon I thought for that: I think he is really so alone on the planet! Have you heard from astronauts, which have been going at the back of the moon? They told a story, of beeing really alone. I didn't find the story, but some other links, which proves, that I'm right.
http://howwelivestories.com/2011/07/08/ ... nto-space/
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles ... e-in-space

But how, if he had someone? If he had a robotic dog, which also survived in the beginning? The dog is part of every spaceship, because - see up! This makes the story logical. The commander has a whistle and if the dog hears it (=is in the area) he comes. So he isn't so alone... And the dog can retrieve material, he needs. Not much, but much enough to be happy with the dog. Such a good dog! I would like to have a extra key to caress him. Ok, this is maybe going to strong in direction of tamagotchi. But I hope you understand: This gives the game an extra aim. It's not only you, it you and your dog. MUCH difference!

Later, the dog can be updated to a more complex "robot". This has some RPG-elements, but mainly it is just a very stupid machine, which can do things and - especially - carry all that stuff. I mean, it's ridiculous how much the commander can carry. And it's also ridiculous, that the commander can produce a factory while running around killing creepers. That could be also done by the robot dog, either it runs around, fetching things or it builds. Ideally I would say, the commander tells the "dog", where to build what and the robot just builds and collects the stuff he needs to build and we should help him, to make this faster. How much fun would it be to watch the dog building some complex stuff?

To make it easy I would recommend that the inventory of the robot dog and the commander is "one" - perhaps after some invention? So what the robot colletcs is also owned by the commander and vice versa.
This speeds up the game much more and you have not only care on yourself, but also on the dog. And this is also, the thing I see the commander: He plans, he looks arround, he defends and attacks. But building itself is not, what he really likes. He is bad in it. But the dog evolves much more than the commander and really gets better in building up and the interface for the player improves with this.

And later in the game you may copy the "robot dog" with a copier, which can copy any kind of material by using energy, so you have more and can build faster. Must be limited by any kind - Perhaps if too much, they will run amok and destroy everything. This leaves place for other stories.

Sooooooo many possibilities are thinkable with this dog. And it brings the story forward, you can introduce the interface in many small steps... I would like that, because the situation is ... more logical... and you have more to watch.

So I think this robot-stuff is really needed in this game, because it gives so many new options and aspects into the game!


PS: I see a clear picture: The commander is alone on the planet. He has only the whistle. He finds the dog and he builds a house for him and one small for his dog. But he has no option to leave the planet. Then the dog brings him suddenly some iron plates. A wonder where it has it from. And then we are at the point, where the real game can start!

[ssilk]

@ ssilk
I don't like any automatic character movement and placing fictitious items.
Neither I support crafting with intermediate steps removed.
(I don't recall what was the rest of the post about, sorry)

I try to make it in short:

1. Remove complexity by reducing needed things to craft (in factories). Maybe concentrate on less stuff, but combine them directly while building. That's not removing intermediate steps! It moves the stuff from the inventory into the map/playfield... The concept is very common and works well in many games. Just one idea of many...
I made an example for belts. Instead of crafting different kind of belts, which spoils the inventory just build one type of it and when you want to built a better type of it you need just more of it.

2. Make things different and distinctable by placing them differently in the game. I made an example with things, which can be placed on map and those, which aren't. Another concept was the idea if having "modes", like building power-stuff, factories, belts ...

3. The gameplay needs speedup. Everything which brings the game forward is good. Everything which enables more creativity is good. Everything which introduces more complexity without target is ... not so good, because it slows the speed. I mean: Why should I mine so much coal, that it stuffs everywhere? The coal should be used anywhere, in time. I haven't managed yet to produce so much coal, that I exactly need, which - in my eyes - is a game target. Or another example was, why do I need to produce extra underground belts? It doesn't bring any new elements into the game. Just more clicks and more wait. Why don't use normal belts instead? Select belt, press SHIFT, N belts are used to built that underground-belt. Voilla.

4. I like the idea of developing from a really hard masterable interface into a much more intuitive way. I like tools, which would help me micro-manage things. You may not like that, but thats the way the world goes: We are different, and that's very good. Would it not be a target to make the game so that everyone can play it like he likes?

If there is a tech that does same, I guess it could work.

Sorry, but didn't understand what you really mean...