Furnace upgrades?

[DragonPox90210]

I'm really loving the game but I've noticed that there are only stone furnaces so far. Of course there's probably going to be electric furnaces but could there also be geothermal furnaces? Maybe have it so there are pools of lava on the surface and they can be pumped like water to smelt ores faster? Anyway it's a great game and I can't wait for more updates

[kovarex]

I'm really loving the game but I've noticed that there are only stone furnaces so far. Of course there's probably going to be electric furnaces but could there also be geothermal furnaces? Maybe have it so there are pools of lava on the surface and they can be pumped like water to smelt ores faster? Anyway it's a great game and I can't wait for more updates

Hi we have some concept art for the iron furnace already.
We would love to have some Large industrial late game blast furnaces (something like this http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... Sestao.jpg in the future)

Geothermal dependent on lava pool is nice idea though ...

[Rapio]

I would love it if the more advanced systems had heat recycling like: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_recov ... _generator
So you would preheat the water for your generators with the waste heat from the furnaces.

[bluecandy101]

So you would preheat the water for your generators with the waste heat from the furnaces.

I like the idea of Rapio.

More manners to make energy, more furnaces available!

[ssilk]

Necroing!

There are now the steel- and electric furnaces, other types of energy are promised. Lava is used in DyTech-mod.

[fishstyk]

Please standardize furnace sizes.

All other upgradable buildings are of the same size as their original. Only furnace upgrades require restructuring one's base layout, due to their increasing sizes.

Reorganizing parts of one's base because one did not plan correctly is part of the challenge of the game. Being able to avoid this due to good base planning is very rewarding. This is fun.
Reorganizing parts of one’s base due to changes in building size (not poor planning) is tedious. This is not fun.

Also, I LLOOVVEE this game!!11!

[ssilk]

Have a look at this thread: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=4432
There is no good reason to change that.

[fishstyk]

I thank you for the link, but I disagree with the conclusions.

I understand the idea that part of the fun of Factorio is rethinking things as new tech comes along, but a forced redesign of one smelting pipeline for no obvious reason is, as I stated, just tedious. As I stated before, redesign due to poor planning is expected, but redesign because of what appears to be an arbitrary change in building size is frustrating.

Some of the defenses of the size change in the thread are ridiculous. “Well, you don't have to replace them.” Really? That’s considered good gameplay? That’s fun? Having a tech choice that is completely unnecessary is a good thing? And all the other techs that improve this, like efficiency and speed mods, I guess those are also not necessary? So why am I playing pass the initial tech levels? I’m not trying to be adversarial, only prompting you to question the rationalizations given.

The thread argued that there are builds that one can use to reduce the redesign cost. This is true, but assumes foreknowledge of the size change, and even then it limits one’s choices of base layout. For new players, when they get to red level tech, there are lots of new problems to solve (like getting their oil pipeline and base defense setup). Last thing they want to do is go back and redesign half their base due to some arbitrary building size change.

In general, the change in smelting sizes introduces tedium to the game and very little real value. I ask that you consider the trade-off.

[ssilk]

but a forced redesign of one smelting pipeline for no obvious reason is, as I stated, just tedious

Yes, it is a complete redesign, cause steel furnace needs fuel and electric furnace needs only electricity... there are a lot of strategies around this, how you take care about this from beginning. It's a game element and forces a player to decide between some very different options.

Some of the defenses of the size change in the thread are ridiculous. “Well, you don't have to replace them.” Really? That’s considered good gameplay? That’s fun? Having a tech choice that is completely unnecessary is a good thing? And all the other techs that improve this, like efficiency and speed mods, I guess those are also not necessary? So why am I playing pass the initial tech levels? I’m not trying to be adversarial, only prompting you to question the rationalizations given.

Well, I'm not quite sure, if you understand the differences between burner/steel furncace and electric furnace completely, so sorry, if I repeat, what you already know.

They are obviously not thought to be just replaced, cause that would be an unfair balancing. There would then be no more reason to use the steel furnace, which is a valid alternative to the electric furnace. The game choice is: Are you going for pollution or do you want to try the cleaner (electric) way. Do you want to use modules or do you want to add just more (smaller) furnaces.

That's why they have different size.

If you think it's not a good gameplay: you're invited to revive the linked thread.

[fishstyk]

Again, I thank you for providing details and reasoning. I’ve pinged the original thread and have, for the most part, accepted that this is not likely to change. While I don’t agree with the outcome, I still very much enjoy the game, so I’ll deal.

As for the coal vs. electric furnaces, while I doubt I understand the differences to your degree, I am aware of some of the tradeoffs, I’m simply not of the opinion that size, requiring a tedious refactor of one’s space, is an enjoyable trade off. If you conclude that you need to go green early to avoid pollution because you are on a map with few trees, figuring this out is ‘fun’, which is diminished when you realize you need to rebuild your entire smelting line. For experience players this can be mitigated, but experience players only come from those that play long enough to become so. This point of tedium will cost the game players. I’m all for choices and tradeoffs, but of the possible tradeoffs, tedium harms the enjoyment of the game.

[Koub]

There is not much I can add to the discussion, but in this case you have become an experienced player at the second playthrough. I did once the mistake of sticking all my firnaces together. I did it only once.

[ssilk]

One more: I very seldom rebuilt the smelting-part of my factories to replace it with electric furnace. Instead I build a new electric smelting site at another place. With much more space. With space for train-incoming-stations. Much easier. You are then also in the stage, where the length of the belts doesn't matter so much and I can then clear the old furnaces to make space for advanced stuff. It really makes things much easier and faster.

That is one of about 10 strategies I know how to deal with the furnaces and I repeat, that is a decision you need to make and it makes the game very interesting.

I admit, that it's needed to make that very clear for the player, that the electric furnace is not a simple replacement like the steel furnace. That is missing indeed.

[Westrum]

When you are at the electric stage, you got access to bots anyway, so redesigning is fairly simple. My opinion of course.

[thereaverofdarkness]

I feel like the electric furnaces are more of a side-grade than an upgrade anyway. They have a larger size but don't need a coal line. They have the same smelting power as a steel furnace. A line of steel furnaces can smelt faster at the same length unless the electric furnaces have speed modules. An electric furnace can fit 3 inserters in front of it, rather than just 2--if for whatever reason you want to put all the inserters on one side and still have room for power poles. Lastly, the electric furnace has module slots. So there's advantages and disadvantages to either, but the electric furnace is a far cry from being an upgrade. Perhaps I would suggest two changes:
1.) make the electric furnaces cheaper to build, more comparable to steel furnaces
2.) grant more than just the electric furnace on advanced material processing 2
That way players will feel less obligated to "upgrade" to electric furnaces, and will get something from the tech even if they don't want electric furnaces.

Example tech: advanced oil refinery--processes crude oil faster

[ssilk]

There is a big discussion in Balancing about the electric furnaces. Please continue discussion there.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=4432 Supression of the size shift of electric furnaces