Uranium Power

[Fatmice]

The flipside is using that volume of ore, I get 8-20kg per barrel of Yellowcake depending on the type of coal I plug in and assuming a mid grade Uranite. 1/30th that above value isn't unreasonable if you're assuming that your fuel assemblies are .5t.

Explain?

[Requia]

If a single ore of coal weighs 1/4 kilogram, then a ore unit (same volume, more mass) of uranite should have about 1/2 a kilogram of uranium (maybe a whole kilogram if it's a very high quality ore), the rest of it is rock, lead, sometimes other metals and the oxygen of course, uranite is 20-45% uranium, though the high end stuff is all mined out.

My point is I'm looking for similar ratios of fuel. Uranite isn't merely 100x as energy dense as coal (hell the trace fissibles make granite 50x as energy dense as coal in theory).

[Fatmice]

So going along with one fuel assembly's worth of reprocessing per half hour (real time), is the uraninite energy density more in line with what you were thinking? It would be best if you show your math when talking about these things so I can see your assumption as you have seen mine.

Remember that 54/5 uraninite = 1x4.7% U235 fuel assembly, which weighs 0.5t. And we are assuming 5% burnup at time of reprocessing, having been in the reactor for half-hour, which was generating at 3000MW.

Uraninite to 1 drum of yellow-cake is 10 to 1.

[Requia]

Ok so my math is this.

Uranite is ~8x the density of coal. Uranite is variable amounts of uranium by mass but I'm picking 25%.

Coal is 32Mj/kg (or some other value but I'm picking this and sticking to it from now on cause it's convenient). Which makes it .25 kilogram.


So each piece of uranite has 8*.25*.25=.5kg uranium in it. Which makes a barrel of yellowcake 5kg of uranium (Not including the oxygen).

1 barrel yellowcake = 75 hexaflouride. There's 150 hexaflouride per fuel assembly, so that makes a fuel assembly 10kg (plus whatever the alloy and cladding is, but it's the uranium that matters).

A reactor gets 30-45GWdays per ton of fuel(this includes the fact that the fuel is 'spent' long before the U235 runs out), so that's 3600(seconds per hour)*24*.01(mass of fuel assembly)*30-45=25,920-38,880GJ/assembly.

Actually now that I correct for the different ideas of how much a fuel assembly masses you're not very short at all.

[Fatmice]

I hope so because I don't get your math.

I don't know why you keep going back to coal. The energy liberated from the nucleus is always much more than any chemical reaction, no matter the density. I would have done the math from the fuel assembly, given what's been said about processing, since there is no clear way to know how much 1 unit of uraninite weighs in the game.

3000 MW x 1/2h * 3600s/h = 5.4e6 MJ <= We'll call this 5% burn-up of 1x4.7% U-235 fuel assembly; equivalently, 1x4.7% U-235 fuel assembly will go to the cooling pond every half-hour when generating at 3000 MW-heat.
1x4.7% U-235 fuel assembly = 0.5t of enriched uranium, of which 4.7% is U-235 => 0.235t of U-235
5% burn-up of 0.235t of U-235 = 0.001175t of U-235
5.4e6 MJ / 0.001175t of U-235 = 4.59574e9 MJ/t ~ 4.6e6 GJ/t of U-235

Thus,
100% burn-up of 1x4.7% U-235 fuel assembly => 1.08e6 GJ
4.6e6 GJ/t of U-235 => 53191.5 GWday / t
100% burn-up of 1x4.7% U-235 fuel assembly = 100% consumption of 54/5 uraninite => 1.08e6 GJ / (54/5 uraninite) = 100000 GJ / uraninite

Also,
10 uraninite => 1 drum of yellow-cake => 75 units of 0.5% uranium-hexafluoride
54/5 uraninite => 81 units of 0.5% uranium-hexafluoride => 1x4.7% U-235 fuel assembly

I suppose you could figure out how much uraninite weighs by dividing however much 1 drum of yellow-cake weighs (in real life) by 10.

[Requia]

Ok this is weird enough that I think it might be a bug? I hit a problem around 50% of expected capacity (sustained 50MWe on a 4 core setup) which I resolved by draining the cores of pressurized water. Is it the case that they need to be substantially less than full? If so why not just reduce the size?

[Fatmice]

Ok this is weird enough that I think it might be a bug? I hit a problem around 50% of expected capacity (sustained 50MWe on a 4 core setup) which I resolved by draining the cores of pressurized water. Is it the case that they need to be substantially less than full? If so why not just reduce the size?

Don't fill more than 1/5 of the available volume in the cores. I can't just reduce the internal volume because bulk flow is needed and having more heat capacitance than needed is a good thing for smooth operation. You don't want spiky, heat-starved, generators do you?

Fluid in this game doesn't work like it does in life. It requires "space" to flow.

[Requia]

Fully upgraded turrets with DU ammo do over 9000 DPS.

This isn't a balance concern (they need a lategame boost to make up for the more complicated logistics, shorter range and lower HP), I just felt the need to point out that it's OVER 9000.

[Fatmice]

Fully upgraded turrets with DU ammo do over 9000 DPS.

This isn't a balance concern (they need a lategame boost to make up for the more complicated logistics, shorter range and lower HP), I just felt the need to point out that it's OVER 9000.

Enjoy it, you are essentially throwing energy at the biters as 0.2%-pellets that could be used for breeding is now destroyed.

Besides, behemoth biters has about 8000 effective hp? They great for late game...albeit limited since uraninite is not that abundant.

[Requia]

RSO simultaneously screwed and rewarded me regarding the uranite supply thing. The only patch of Uranite is so far away the local ores are 4-5k per square.

[Fatmice]

RSO simultaneously screwed and rewarded me regarding the uranite supply thing. The only patch of Uranite is so far away the local ores are 4-5k per square.

Ah, well nothing much I can do about that. But the good news is that such deposits should make up for the lack of them.

[cpy]

Is there some version where uranium fuel is used up or is it just in some planned version still? Haven't checked this mod for a while.

[Fatmice]

It's in the next version. Will come out when 0.13 is released.

[Quazar]

Ah, well nothing much I can do about that

I thought I'd share this LOL and ask if maybe you could tell RSO to be a little kinder? I got my base all set up and ready for the next step, unlimited power (and some awesome ammo)... started making rails and went exploring to find the Uraninite....

OH MAN that's gonna be a journey! http://imgur.com/8JFdVSo

I don't know how to measure it but it's twice past BFE... yikes

[steinio]

And don't think about the time when the Uranite patch dryied out. :p
Havn't found one yet on my map...

[Fatmice]

Ah, well nothing much I can do about that

I thought I'd share this LOL and ask if maybe you could tell RSO to be a little kinder? I got my base all set up and ready for the next step, unlimited power (and some awesome ammo)... started making rails and went exploring to find the Uraninite....

OH MAN that's gonna be a journey! http://imgur.com/8JFdVSo

I don't know how to measure it but it's twice past BFE... yikes

Well...the values RSO used were suggested by me. So to be fair, maybe I screwed you...but indirectly. You could just adjust those values. They're in one of those files within the RSO mod.

And don't think about the time when the Uranite patch dryied out. :p
Havn't found one yet on my map...

Hm yeah, next version you're going to have to make some decisions regarding whether to turn the depleted uranium into bullets and get no energy out of them or use them for energy. I'm still think about what to do when you have no uranium deposit nearby... I want to allow usage of thorium but I don't want to introduce another ore. So I need some suggestion regarding this. Thorium as another ore should only be the last resort.

[ClubPetey]

Hm yeah, next version you're going to have to make some decisions regarding whether to turn the depleted uranium into bullets and get no energy out of them or use them for energy. I'm still think about what to do when you have no uranium deposit nearby... I want to allow usage of thorium but I don't want to introduce another ore. So I need some suggestion regarding this. Thorium as another ore should only be the last resort.

Some suggestions for what to do when you have no uranium:
1. Pull it from Water - Check out this article:
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/5147 ... -seawater/

With that theory you could make a recipe for the chemical processor that coverts water into uranium. I would also require a plastic-based filter that gets consumed in the process. It could be 100 filters to a plastic bar, but it would force the player to be at least at oil tech to get the process going.

2. Pull it from Stone - Similarly you could filter it from Stone. I'd use the chem-processor against and require sulfur dioxide. A LOT of SO2, but better yields that the water method. This is especially useful if you have Yuoki Industries installed as a lot of stone is produced. You could also create a recipe for the Yuoki washer that does the same thing, but maybe more efficiently.

Both these methods should produce Uranite very slowly, but I'm working under the rules of 0.6.3 that once you have your rods, you have basically free power, as they are not consumed. If you change the rules so that the rods are consumed, you'd have to balance power to create vs. power returned.

On that topic, My suggestion would be to keep the 3x3 reactor such that it does not use up rods, as long as you have only ONE turbine attached. If you attach a second turbine, or you use the 5x5 reactor that consumes rods.

Thanks
-pete

[Fatmice]

Some suggestions for what to do when you have no uranium:
1. Pull it from Water - Check out this article:
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/5147 ... -seawater/

With that theory you could make a recipe for the chemical processor that coverts water into uranium. I would also require a plastic-based filter that gets consumed in the process. It could be 100 filters to a plastic bar, but it would force the player to be at least at oil tech to get the process going.

I know about the water filtration technology demonstration. I don't think it will ever be ready for prime time, not the least due to actinide chemistry in water being all very similar thus very difficult to get very good selectivity. It is interesting research but purely academic. Regarding game technology, uranium is already gated after sulfur processing thus the player should already be processing oil in their game. I have plans to gate more reactor components/types behind technology instead of making everything available with a single technology unlock.

2. Pull it from Stone - Similarly you could filter it from Stone. I'd use the chem-processor against and require sulfur dioxide. A LOT of SO2, but better yields that the water method. This is especially useful if you have Yuoki Industries installed as a lot of stone is produced. You could also create a recipe for the Yuoki washer that does the same thing, but maybe more efficiently.

I think I've settled on a solution, or rather, two solutions.

The first solution assumes that coal is plentiful on the map so I will introduce a technology to recovery uranium from coal ash. This technology comprises of a combustor that can recover coal ash and some chemical plant recipes to leach uranium from coal ash. The combustor is coupled to an Ericksson engine to allow generation of electricity in place of vanilla steam generators and boilers. I suspect 10-20k coal burnt should give enough ash to recover enough uranium for one 4.7% u-235 fuel assembly. The leached ash can either be stored in general storage or go into a special storage that will generate pollution as it is slowly wind-swept away.

The second solution is for long term production of uranium and thorium. I'm not going to introduce thorium as an ore but as an almost inexhaustible energy source that needs some intensive processing chains. This will done through mining sand with a special building near a water tile. You will need to setup some chemical chains to produce the liquid chemicals needed to leach uranium and thorium from the sands. I'm still looking at the numbers but at the moment I'm looking at processing around 9 million units of sand to produce enough thorium with the energy equivalent of one 4.7% U-235 fuel assembly or double that amount of sand for uranium. The energy needed to dig up that much sand varies but at minimum 10% of the total energy of one 4.7% U-235 fuel assembly. The reason for this is that the special building sited on the sand tile near water will generate almost infinite sand, so you don't have to keep moving them or finding new sites too often, but at a very slowly increasing energy cost. I think for most players, this slowly creeping energy cost should not be a problem if they manage their nuclear inventories well. It might be a problem for those who use their nuclear inventories for offensive purposes. So in sum the energy cost for procuring uranium or thorium from sand is A+B, where A is a slowly increasing energy cost of sand and B is a fixed energy cost to process that sand. The technology for this will also be gated behind one or two research projects so the player don't need to spend resources if they already have access to uraninite. Storage for leached sand will be similar to coal ash. I suspect you would want the sand to disappear given so much of it is dug up

Both these methods should produce Uranite very slowly, but I'm working under the rules of 0.6.3 that once you have your rods, you have basically free power, as they are not consumed. If you change the rules so that the rods are consumed, you'd have to balance power to create vs. power returned.

The rods will definitely decay in the next version. The energy balance will of course be empirically determined based on player response. Thus far more than a few have "complained" that the rods are a cheat.

On that topic, My suggestion would be to keep the 3x3 reactor such that it does not use up rods, as long as you have only ONE turbine attached. If you attach a second turbine, or you use the 5x5 reactor that consumes rods.

Thanks
-pete

The current class of reactors are going away. Of course I'm working to leave them in the legacy code so that 0.7.x will be drop-in compatible with 0.6.3 savegames. However, just because they will continue to function does not mean you will be able to build them any more. So I will "grandfather" them, but they will disappear from the recipe list.

[Chreutz]

Hey Fatmice.
I would just like to say that your solution and plans for the new version sounds absolutely awesome! I am really hyped for this mod, and can't wait for 0.13 to drop. Good work!

[cpy]

0.13 soon, i don't care about 0.13 i care about 0.13 because this mod will be updated.
I don't care for 0.13 features one bit. But man, i so want to play this mod in 0.13