Uranium Power

[ssfsx17]

Based on the latest FFF, it seems that this mod will not be displaced at all. So I, for one, am still eagerly looking forward to the next phase of this mod.

[steinio]

Based on the latest FFF, it seems that this mod will not be displaced at all. So I, for one, am still eagerly looking forward to the next phase of this mod.

But this mod could adapt the new uranium ore instead.

[Fatmice]

Of course, 0.15 will bring many changes that will affect this mod. (I'm on vacation but will be back to work tomorrow...it's high time to push out the next release, 0.6.7, just a few sprite work is all that's left to do and some small code changes). The rollback of features for the nuclear power in 0.15 from the recent FFF is both good and bad. Clearly, the change to how boilers behave will affect this mod. Since the new boiler now output a different fluid to a separate output, all current reactor designs will break! I hope that it won't break so badly though. It remains to be seen how I can fix it and I won't really know until I can play with 0.15-experimental. I'm hoping to put the "reactor" prototypes to use though. If it can be done, then I can reduce some of the lua code. It would be ashamed if I can't adapt the "reactor" prototypes to do something useful outside of what it was intended.

The new uranium ore and this mod's uranium ore will of course be usable interchangeably. I think an interim recipe to do 1:1 exchange will suffice. I intend to change or make the enrichment require more chemical plants by slowing down the process (not part of 0.6.7 though). I had a long discussion about this with my helper and we tentatively agreed that we could remove the use of chemical plant for enrichment and instead use a canister/item with health % to do enrichment instead. This would make the enrichment process much more organic and remove the proliferation of recipes of the current process. The new way would be a 3x3 building that has an electric-interface+chest entities.

Something like this

Code: Select all

   AAA|AAA|     |AAA|AAA
|->CAA|CAA|.....|CAA|CAA|->
   AAA|AAA|     |AAA|AAA

Where A's is the electric-interface and C the chest placed underneath the former. The |->'s are inserters and the (...) are some numbers of the new hybrid entity. Some amount of 0.7% 235-UF6 + steel is first made into a low-enrichment-canister (call it LEC). These LEC's will start out with very low health and are inserted into the chest of the new hybrid entity (lets call them centrifuges). Energy is removed from the grid to raise the LEC's health. After some number of % raised, the LEC gets kick out of the centrifuge. What happens next depends on what's adjacent to the centrifuge's on the side opposite the chest (input). If the adjacent entity is an inserter, the LEC will be placed into the inventory of the inserter. If the adjacent entity is another centrifuge, the LEC will be inserted into the chest (input) of that centrifuge where the process of raising the health % continues. The likelihood of getting kicked out again depends on the % of health with higher % means more likely. Eventually though, the LEC will reach 100% health and will be transformed into a HEC by the current centrifuge, which will kick it out for the final time. The HEC can be transformed back into some fixed amount of 4.7% and 0.2% 235-UF6. Both can then be crafted into the pellets.

The significance of the new process are less recipes and the removal of the current intermediate percentages. The new process is also much more amendable to circuit logic and logistic system. It also involves less fluid management so the piping mess should be next to nonexistent. It should be more intuitive and easier to learn. Your feedback on the proposal is welcome.

[Demonk]

Hi.
Angel has "fluorite-ore" and "liquid-hydrofluoric-acid" (in angelspetrochem_0.3.4). They are not used in the UP.

upd. I understand that this is not your problem, but I want to shared resources. It may be that you can come up with?

[Fatmice]

Come up with what? I don't understand.

[Light]

Come up with what? I don't understand.

I think he wants you to replace your ore with Angel's version instead, since he's not keen on having two types of the same ore.

Hi.
Angel has "fluorite-ore" and "liquid-hydrofluoric-acid" (in angelspetrochem_0.3.4). They are not used in the UP.

upd. I understand that this is not your problem, but I want to shared resources. It may be that you can come up with?

Given how Angel's works, that would be a very bad idea. The ore is only produced by waste material which is not obtainable in large amounts since only a very specific process creates it.
You'll never be able to keep on top of demand without a massive jivolite chunk refinery which will result in a lot of wasted materials and jivolite ore being burned up rapidly just to keep uranium going.

Uranium vs Angel is 2:1 in creation, so jivolite ore production will be very lopsided with many storage chests full of jivolite chunks you'll never burn up. It would be a disaster.

The only way this could work is if fluorine gas was replaced with hydrofluoric acid so that the oil industry could be used to make up some of the difference, but that's far more hassle than it's worth.

[Nobody]

Is this an appropriate use of the 500MW reactor?

[Fatmice]

Come up with what? I don't understand.

I think he wants you to replace your ore with Angel's version instead, since he's not keen on having two types of the same ore.

So he wants to use Angel's fluorite to make HF? And suffers a much longer process? Sure

I can make a compatibility script in the data section to replace my HF with Angel's version. He'll have to suffer through the chemical processing pathway to make the HF from Angel's fluorite. However, I will not remove my fluorite from the map since if he changes his mind and removes Angel's mod, he will still have fluorite. I can add this to 0.6.7, which will use less HF due to recycling. Will need testing with technologies though as recipes disabling should be seamless and adapt to changes in mod use.

Is this an appropriate use of the 500MW reactor?

Yes and no. That setup is once through and will destroy all fluids. You also won't need fluid for condensing as there is nothing to condense. It should work though. 0.6.7 will give you a steam-generator to work with the 500MW reactor that you can use with the current turbine generators.

[Rue99]

Very much looking forward to 0.67. Keep up the good work!

[Demonk]

Come up with what? I don't understand.

I think he wants you to replace your ore with Angel's version instead, since he's not keen on having two types of the same ore.

So he wants to use Angel's fluorite to make HF? And suffers a much longer process? Sure

I can make a compatibility script in the data section to replace my HF with Angel's version. He'll have to suffer through the chemical processing pathway to make the HF from Angel's fluorite. However, I will not remove my fluorite from the map since if he changes his mind and removes Angel's mod, he will still have fluorite. I can add this to 0.6.7, which will use less HF due to recycling. Will need testing with technologies though as recipes disabling should be seamless and adapt to changes in mod use.

Sorry for the vague description, it is not the native language.
I was confused by the presence of two fluorite ores (yours, and Angel). Also I'm not a chemist, but I think that getting a Angels "fluorite-ore" from wastewater - is wrong. And also, there are two non-overlapping processes of fluorine - is also wrong. If take your fluorite, Angels HF, and reduced to one process - it would be right... I do not know.

[Light]

Come up with what? I don't understand.

I think he wants you to replace your ore with Angel's version instead, since he's not keen on having two types of the same ore.

So he wants to use Angel's fluorite to make HF? And suffers a much longer process? Sure

I can make a compatibility script in the data section to replace my HF with Angel's version. He'll have to suffer through the chemical processing pathway to make the HF from Angel's fluorite. However, I will not remove my fluorite from the map since if he changes his mind and removes Angel's mod, he will still have fluorite. I can add this to 0.6.7, which will use less HF due to recycling. Will need testing with technologies though as recipes disabling should be seamless and adapt to changes in mod use.

Haha.

This is the chain used to create Angel's fluorite.

Ores

This is the only way to obtain it through the waste waters, but that fluorite is meant to be used in creating hydrofluoric acid used to turn jivolite chunks into crystals. Those crystals are used for the 2+2+2 method of making your fluorite ore, among other ores the player may require.

The rate of waste to gas to waste is 1:1, so it's self sustaining. However, with fluorite recycling (which I forgot about) I honestly might prefer doing it this way as an additional complication step. Chunks are used in the creation of Zinc and Aluminum ores, so overflow shouldn't be too severe depending on the player setup. Should chunk production suddenly grind to a halt after a couple days of gameplay, that's when reliance on recycling will be most critical.

So it may be worth exploring this idea after all.

[Light]

So just a small update to the previous idea after playing around with it.

Using the "dirty" sorting method that provides many different ores shows that fluorine use is self sustaining at 1:1 with no real excess possible. But when using the "clean" method of producing a single ore type (The 2+2+2 method) there's more of an imbalance to hydrofluoric acid use, thus it's likely you'll have plenty of fluorine at your disposal for use in uranium enrichment. This is offset even further if the player is cracking acid gas which also makes hydrofluoric acid, thus sparing even more fluorite ore for use when using either method.

So it is very possible to use angel's fluorite alone to sustain a reactor, even without recycling enabled yet. Those who prefer the "dirty" method and don't crack acid gas to compensate may struggle a bit until they figure it out, but after trying it out there was no issue.

It also resolves accumulating too much angels fluorite if the player goes that route, so I like the idea even more.

[cpy]

Running marathon mod and could even use 2GW closed loop reactor to lower lag. Because 16x 250MW eats 1ms script time on 4.4Ghz machine.

[Mobius1]

Could you make barreling of all your fluids possible? Its kinda impossible to refine 1 wasted MOX per minute with piping, if we could barrel the fluids then it would be possible

Thanks in advance.

[Light]

Its kinda impossible to refine 1 wasted MOX per minute with piping

I'm rather curious, how many reactors are you using to burn through a MOX per minute?

My current bob recycling setup permits creation of 30 MOX assemblies per hour using piping without issue, as none of the processes require any buffering of any kind due to the very slow refinement process to begin with. This is enough to feed 8 reactors with plenty of MOX along with the occasional 4.7% rod created, so you must have a monster setup. Unless you're just planning to use robots to avoid creating a complex piping setup for the easy way out, there's really no advantage to any barrels that a pipe couldn't currently handle.

[Mobius1]

The chemplant that receives the wasted MOX has a crafting speed of 20, it produces 5.7k spent fuel every cycle but the pipes can only transport 150u/s per pipe with a 0.1s delay every 10 pipe entities.

My Radioactive outpost is half the size of my main base to deal with the speed required for this goal but still not possible due to piping limitations. I tried Ceramic pipes since their size is 20 but the flow rate is the same and the pumps can only work with a size of 10 so the flow rate is still capped at 150u/s, meaning they won't solve it, so I'm using tungsten pipes since they reach 30ud. I read somewhere that underground pipes counts as 2 pipe sections regardless of the size of the underground, which is not true since I have to apply some pumping on every few sections of the UG. Tungs pipes to keep the flow rate nearly max.
4 chemplants can overflow a pipe with the output but don't overflow a tank, so after 4 chemplant setups I have a tank as overflow buffer, to handle the water production is easy, just hook a pump MK4 on the tank and the water will be dealt with. But the other fluds not so much. I kinda need 3 HNO3 setups to keep the nitric acid flow on the pipes when I could just produce the acid somewhere and unload them by barrels making the setup much more prettier and less spaguetti-like.

I'm currently producing 20k water barrels per min to deal with the power usage using only 10 water stations (Station: 4 offshore pumps, 1 reactor recirculation pump, 1 bob's pump MK4, 3 beacons) and I think 20 250MW reactor setups producing energy.

The maximum speed I got from the wasted MOX's was 0.9/min and I ran out of ideas on how to make it reach 1.0/min so the solution would be barreling to be able to do 5/min or maybe 10/min which is my goal for this save.

[Nobody]

just a suggestion
could you add a poison cloud effect when a nuke is used, and have it linger for a long(ish) time
or some other method of emulating nuclear fallout

[Light]

4 chemplants can overflow a pipe with the output but don't overflow a tank, so after 4 chemplant setups I have a tank as overflow buffer

I think I know what you mean here.

To get a good system going, I forcefully set a limit of two chemical plants per recycling recipe throughout the entire system to get rather stable flow without jamming outputs. However the initial recipes of oxygen, nitrogen, and hydrogen naturally require far more than two, and so they do regularly clog up due to that low pipe transfer speed. This led to fast pumps and ceramic pipes in a tangled underground web to get these ingredients where they must go rather rapidly. The only solution was to take my setup and keep it small enough to handle the inputs and just blueprint it multiple times to keep up.

There's a bit of saving grace on my end since I use Angel's Petrochem mod, which does have barrelling for oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, and sulfuric acid. Allowing their creation from a distance and using trains to deliver as needed. But I still don't know if that would have any added advantage since the barrels will still need to unload into a pipe, which could mean you just make the products right there next to the recycling plant anyway.

What in particular were you hoping to barrel specifically? Because I'd love to hear more of your ideas to improve the setup even further.

[Mobius1]

I use Full angel's, bob's, AAI's, Uranium Power and a few other mods in my game, that includes petrochem and biofarm on angel's side.

Barrel dropping on a pipe really does nothing but a barrel unloading to a machine can solve the flow limit jamming. So if I unload a barrel of 25 nitric acid in the chemplant that is liquifying the wasted MOX, it will fill up faster than 150u/s since there's no flow limit from the pump to the machine. A pump MK4 with a crafting speed of 80 can unload 20 barrels/s that equals to 500 HNO3/s so I just bump the crafting speed of the pump and I can fill the machine with 5.7k HNO3 in a matter of seconds, but with pipes its limited to 150u/s.

The liquified fuel waste that goes out of that chemplant can be unloaded directly on a pump to fill barrels and be transferred to 2 chemplants that will process all of it in a matter of few seconds, which can't happen with piping because it can only transport 150u/s, so it takes minutes to transport the 5.7k recovered fuel.

And those are only the 2 initial fluids that are required for the whole process and yeah, my current setup consumes 160 hydrogen barrels every 5s, 30 nitrogen barrels every 5s and 45~50 oxygen barrels every 5s, I can recover 90 hydrogen barrels/5s from the recovered water and I locally produce all the nitrogen and oxygen needed with a simple 3 air filter, 1 chem plant, 2 pumps MK4 and beacons.

My current setup is so ugly, there's pumps everywhere to keep the flow and still not close to 1/min, since every fluid mod out there have barrels for everything, I think it would be a good idea to add barrelling to this mod as well.

[Fatmice]

Sorry, I have been too busy to check the forum this week.

You say you have 20x250 MW reactor? You run those reactors at their max output? I find it hard to see how you end up needing that much liquid throughput. Am I missing something?

1/ A single 250 MW reactor with 15 fuel assemblies will last about 11 hours +/- some minutes before the first fuel assembly is spent. Soon after this, they will convert to spent fuel within 5-10 minutes. So we'll take the ballpark 11 hours. Thus 15/11 = 1.36364 assemblies per hour. You have 20 reactors so 27.2728 assemblies per hour.
2/ 1 spent MOX => 5700 units of liquid spent fuel in 600s or 10 minutes at processing speed of 1. However, the chemical plants without speed modules are at 1.25 so the time is only 8 minutes. With parallel processings, you can dissolve all 27.2728 assemblies using 4 chemical plants in under one hour. On average, each will produce 27.2728*5700/4 = 39963.7 units of liquid spent fuel per hour or 10.7955 units per second. This is well under the pipe throughput.
3/ The rate limiting is actually not the spent fuel dissolution step but the FPS extractions. To extract 5700 units of liquid spent fuel, you need (5700/100) * (45/1.25) = 2052 seconds. This is much more than the time it takes to dissolve one MOX spent fuel. Thus to keep it at 8 minutes, you will need 2052/400 = 6 dedicated chemical plants for each MOX dissolution plant. You should pipe 6 to 1 and keep 4 sub pipe networks.
4/ Each 45s recipes will be similarly constructed so you have 42 chemical plants per MOX dissolution plant. The subtotal will be 172 plants. This is without the recovery steps. The energy expenditure will be 7206.8 KW (using green modules of course). Again without accounting the recovery steps.
5/ All of the recovery steps are on average 7.5x faster than the intermediate extraction steps. Thus you will need 7.5x less chemical plants to do the reagent recovery. I estimate this to be about 23 chemical plants.
6/ So far, the throughput in pipes will be no more than 90 units/s.

I am not against adding barrels. However, I do not see a reason in this case. Feel free to try and convince me otherwise. It has to be a good reason and other than pipe throughput as clearly that is not the case.