[0.11.x] Uranium Power

[Xeteth]

I am utterly confused as to the actual process of what's going on here - I have so far managed to get to make the 4% Fuel packs but am confused as to where to go from here.

I tried the example build but everything runs out of power and shuts down so I don't actually know what's going on - what version of Factorio should I be running for it to work and which mods (and versions).

Any help appreciated, cheers!

[DukeAl]

Hi, I tried to find the most recent download but it is very confusing. Your link points to a post with v. 0.5.3 but the changelog says that 0.5.3_1 is the newest version.
And very nice mod by the way. By far the prettiest nuclear power mod.

[n9103]

All the info you guys are looking for is in fatmice's main post:
https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... 160#p66749

[Fatmice]

I am utterly confused as to the actual process of what's going on here - I have so far managed to get to make the 4% Fuel packs but am confused as to where to go from here.

I tried the example build but everything runs out of power and shuts down so I don't actually know what's going on - what version of Factorio should I be running for it to work and which mods (and versions).

Any help appreciated, cheers!

Hello, I've updated the example build. I believe the upper part ran out of power because the upkeep power loop was provided by a test-mode solar panel. I've replaced that with vanilla steam-engines. The current version is 0.5.3 and works with Factorio 0.11.16. Download the example build again and see if it is working for you. Let me know if further help is needed.

Hi, I tried to find the most recent download but it is very confusing. Your link points to a post with v. 0.5.3 but the changelog says that 0.5.3_1 is the newest version.
And very nice mod by the way. By far the prettiest nuclear power mod.

That is simply for versioning and logging of changes. I would have preferred that Factorior provided x.x.x.x versioning but alas it does not so that's why 0.5.3_1. For the users however, the number you should care about is just 0.5.3. Just use the download link and all should be fine. I hope that made sense.

So in short, example build is updated to Factorio 0.11.16 with some fixes to the upkeep power loop. All information is on this post.

[Xeteth]

Ok, I think I am almost there - one thing though - I cannot find a recipe for the Reactor Access Port anywhere... What have I screwed up hehe?

EDIT: Nevermind - I am an idiot. (For those wondering, it gives it to you in your inventory)

[Enterpriser1995]

Suggestion that's pretty much a must.

Make it challenging.

I'm not a nuclear engineer, but i managed to pass a night or two on the Chernobyl disaster, and i do know how a nuclear power plant works.

so, here we go.

First, we need to know what exactly a nuclear power plant works. Or even better, how a REAL nuclear reactor works.

U is used in combination with C [(Graphite) as a neutral material] to make U particles move freely and break the U particles of the other bars. As a result, heat is generated in the process.

This heat is then brought to the underwater part of the reactor, heating up the water, boiling it, and using the steam to generate power.

The power is then used to power pumps, in an endless process that if altered, can cause a nuclear meltdown, exactly like the one we know.

But what if we want to stop the process?

Here come our Ba bars, blocking U particles and leading to the shutdown.

So, here we go with the suggestions.


Make a pump that can pump at least 1500 l/ps,
U bars, Graphite backgrounds and Ba bars.
Make a device that can regulate the height and the number of the Ba bars. (No less than 26 unless you want to overheat your reactor)
Make a device that can regulate the water input.

These two devices combined should regulate the power of the reactor, so no need to make one for that too, just make a craftable monitor with a GUI so we can see how much we're generating.

if the reactor overheats and melts down it will add 5000 pollution units.

[n9103]

I think there's a good deal of misinformation behind this suggestion on the mechanics. That, and/or you're purposefully aiming at using obsolete reactor setups based on faulty understanding of nuclear decay.
Factorio's civilization is pretty far advanced in terms of technology, and I'm sure they're using reactors that are safer and more efficient than those we built in the 1970s.
No offense intended, but you've come off as ignorant at the least, since you're insisting that a mod maker use your version of ideas, which are themselves unsound.

[SHiRKiT]

I hope we have Fusion Reactor in 1.000 years from now.

[Enterpriser1995]

I think there's a good deal of misinformation behind this suggestion on the mechanics. That, and/or you're purposefully aiming at using obsolete reactor setups based on faulty understanding of nuclear decay.
Factorio's civilization is pretty far advanced in terms of technology, and I'm sure they're using reactors that are safer and more efficient than those we built in the 1970s.
No offense intended, but you've come off as ignorant at the least, since you're insisting that a mod maker use your version of ideas, which are themselves unsound.

As i said before, sorry, i'm not a nuclear engineer, and i honestly don't know the modern nuclear reactors, and how do they work,
I just found the idea interesting, and i suggested.

[Fatmice]

Suggestion that's pretty much a must.

Make it challenging.

I'm not a nuclear engineer, but i managed to pass a night or two on the Chernobyl disaster, and i do know how a nuclear power plant works.

so, here we go.

First, we need to know what exactly a nuclear power plant works. Or even better, how a REAL nuclear reactor works.

U is used in combination with C [(Graphite) as a neutral material] to make U particles move freely and break the U particles of the other bars. As a result, heat is generated in the process.

This heat is then brought to the underwater part of the reactor, heating up the water, boiling it, and using the steam to generate power.

The power is then used to power pumps, in an endless process that if altered, can cause a nuclear meltdown, exactly like the one we know.

But what if we want to stop the process?

Here come our Ba bars, blocking U particles and leading to the shutdown.

So, here we go with the suggestions.


Make a pump that can pump at least 1500 l/ps,
U bars, Graphite backgrounds and Ba bars.
Make a device that can regulate the height and the number of the Ba bars. (No less than 26 unless you want to overheat your reactor)
Make a device that can regulate the water input.

These two devices combined should regulate the power of the reactor, so no need to make one for that too, just make a craftable monitor with a GUI so we can see how much we're generating.

if the reactor overheats and melts down it will add 5000 pollution units.

So essentially you want something like this?
http://www.nuclearpowersimulator.com/
or this?
http://esa21.kennesaw.edu/activities/nu ... y/nuke.htm
or this?
http://www.nuclearinst.com/Nuclear-Reactor-Simulator
or this?
http://playgen.com/play/dalton-nuclear-simulator/

The first one is actually quite nice and imo, the best one out of the list. However, what they all have in common is that they are "simulators." They are concerned about the small details of the inner workings of a physical system, i.e. the nuclear reactor and its supporting buildings. This mod is not a simulator and is primarily about the power production aspects. The first reason this mod exists is because Factorio's power generation is woefully inadequate in terms of complexity, i.e. fuel goes in, power comes out, as compared to the rest of the production aspects of the game. Granted, the mod in its current state is not too complex with production yet because I have not put in fuel decay and therefore no reprocessing production chains. This will happen and when it does hopefully you will see that it is satisfying and challenging to produce power from uranium, without the need to control nobs and levers to regulate control rods, coolant pressure, flow rate, or whatever.

Another reason this mod exists is because power production in Factorio is very much hunter-gatherer, e.g. "oh look a patch of coal, lets burn it up with boilers...OH no! Running out of coal, must find more!!! Oh..what's this sticky stuff? Looks like it can be burned so turn it into solid fuel and burn it up with boilers...OH NO! THE SLICK STUFF IS RUNNING DRY, MUST...FIND...MORE!!!" While the example is some what hyperbolic, but very apt to our real human situation, it is how the game plays if you are using the polluting method of producing power. It is even more one dimensional if you use the non-polluting method of producing power, i.e. solar panels. I had find neither methods very satisfying so this mod seeked to balance those two aspects by making power producing less hunter-gatherer and less slapping down blueprints. As I add more to the mod, I hope that this goal is realized.

Now, could I actually add some simulations to the mod? A GUI for the reactor with the nobs and lever for regulating the core temperature, a GUI for regulating pump speed and primary coolant flow, a GUI for secondary systems, and yet another for turbine generator...I had considered adding them, but have decided that at the moment they do not add to the game play and do not fit well with the Factorio model, which is more top-down and less bottom-up. However, maybe when the other aspects of the mod are done, I will revisit these ideas and see which will actually add to the mod and allow finer controls for those who want them. You must realize though that these GUIs are the icing on a cake and not the cake itself. At the moment, I am more focused on making the cake.

While on this topic of fine details, I must clarify what will not be added as a feature of this mod. There will be no melt downs, no radiation poisoning, no radiation effects, no waste disposal, no waste storage. Why, WHy, WHY??!!

The reason these will not be added is a combination of personal preference and modding limitations. Lets discuss them.

• Melddowns: I do not know why people like them...It must be the mental image of a mushroom cloud over the reactor that's conjured up when thinking about meltdowns . While real nuclear meltdowns can occur, they are rare and they are also boring. One does not actually see anything other than some out-gassing. Explosions due to combustible gasses and steam are also rare. It is not what you see in the movies. Buildings do not go up in smoke or into a million pieces. What actually does occur in an explosion is that the reactor vessel containment structure will stand and if it will collapse at all then it will collapse onto itself burying the reactor core in may layers of concrete. This is by design. The reactor itself will not go critical, i.e. blow up, as the fuel is not of critical mass. In Factorio, the most that can be done is to damage the reactor entity and generate pollution. This not satisfying though unless the damage amount actually destroys the reactor as it will continue to function otherwise. The generated pollution also do not damage its surroundings as that is not part of Factorio's coding. In short, there is no mushroom cloud or any "wow" factor in a meltdown. In fact, people try to prevent such thing from happening in the first place...So why would anyone want that in a mod?
• Radiation poisoning: No good way of simulating this other than HP damage. This requires the entities be tracked in an ontick manner and is not very scalable. It does not take many entities tracked with ontick before your game becomes unplayable. The limitation is purely LUA.
• Radiation effects: Pollution is not a good substitute for radiation effects. Radiation effects also must be tracked by sources and receivers and the numbers get large very quickly as irradiated objects become radiation sources themselves. LUA is a bad choice for doing this.
• Waste disposal and waste storage: Most "radioactive wastes" from the reactor fuel can be mitigated by fast reactor and various transmutation technologies. Wastes from enrichment as well as reprocessing is already simulated as pollution by the game. Therefore there is no waste that remains as physical item or entities or at least I will make it so in the Factorio world. One can assume that handling nuclear wastes to a space-faring society is like eating a banana to an ape.

So this is a good point to clue you all in on what's in plan or to be expected. I've mentally fleshed out some but not all parts of what's listed.
For 0.6.0 (due in 2 weeks, hopefully sooner if my friend and I can make acceptable graphics and my LUA works!)

• The reactor building will expand into a reactor complex. Three new buildings are added, the reactor recirculation pump, the steam generator, and the turbine generator/cooling tower. These are not required to generate power as they will simply make power generation more compact so you can keep your current power generation build if that is what you choose.
• Reactor recirculation pump: A pump capable of delivering 1200 fluid units/s for the reactors. There are two version of this pump to fit with the size of the reactor. The pumps will also have an (S) and (R) version since the input and output are placed in a way that made them chiral. The current arrangement of the input and output will mitigate the need for pipes and so maximized fluid throughput. The pump will connect directly with the fluid return from the steam generator.
• Steam generator: No it is not a steam engine. It takes water and make steam using heat from the pressurised-water. It will be the first multi-structured building of the mod. It is does not use an assembler prototype so no fluid recipe. It is a special storage tank and three special pipes with LUA to make it function. It connects directly to the reactor and the reactor recirculation pump.
• Turbine generator/cooling tower: This a generator prototype on hyperdrive. It connects directly to the steam generator. It consumes steam to generate power, as per Factorio logic, but it also produces low pressure steam that must be condensed to keep power generation going, hence cooling tower. This is also a multi-structured building (steam-engine, a special storage tank, and two special pipes) that is made functional by LUA. Expect the turbine generator to have power production capacities beyond the heat generation of the reactor, i.e. you can never max out the turbine generator but will be able to produce the same amount of electricity as you would be if using steam-engines. So if you are producing 25 MW(electricity) with your current build of steam-engines and 3by3 reactor, then you will still be able to do the same with the turbine generator; it will simply be engineered to be able to support higher throughput. This building consumes feedwater, low-pressure steam, and regenerate the same amount of water used by the steam generator (secondary coolant loop) if operating at peak efficiency. You don't actually loose any water in the secondary coolant loop but if you allow the low-pressure steam to backup then you will decrease the amount of power generated.
• The idea behind the introduction of these three buildings is to allow the building of a closed primary and secondary coolant loop and the ability to tweak the fluid flux of these loops via the amount of feedwater that is put into the cooling tower system. This hopefully allows emergent play without the need for GUI.

For 0.7.0 (not as fleshed out, but on the back of my mind)

• Fuel decay: Yep! You heard it right. Your fuel assemblies will not last forever. Sorry...but I'm a biochemist and I love my thermodynamics god, Ludwig Boltzmann. Besides I'm not too happy if his entropy laws are not followed to the letter, S = k log W. The 4.8% fuel assemblies will be designed to have a burn-up of about 500 KWday worth of energy (43.2 GigaJoules, 14.4 minutes of constant generation at 50 MW). The fuel assemblies with U-235 enrichment % below 4.8 will simply have proportionally less energy.
• Reprocessing: Depleted fuel assemblies will be reprocessed and made into MOX fuel assemblies. Reprocessing schematics are currently being evaluated. The burn-up time for MOX assemblies is still being considered but the depleted MOX fuel assemblies can be further reprocessed for more burn-up. You will be able to completely fission the uraninite that was used to make the original fuel assemblies.
• Fast reactor: Use MOX fuel assemblies to produce heat.
• Atomic Transmutor: Turn nuclear poisons and radioactive nuclei too small to fission into harmless non-radioactive material. It will be used to produce the metal and materials needed to make and support the running of the Fast reactor as well as MOX fuel assemblies. It will use quite a bit of electricity as well as some radioactive nuclei for neutron source. Lots of thinking and planning for this particular building.

Beyond 0.7.0

• Nuclear battery: Some fission wastes that can not be transmuted will be made into nuclear battery.
• Nuclear weapons: ICBMs anyone? Maybe some cool guns? Uranium slugs artillery? Radioactive capsules?
• Batteries: With all that power generated, won't you want some sort of distribution without the need for long lines of power lines?
• Other ideas?

I hope we have Fusion Reactor in 1.000 years from now.

Fusion reactor is in the plan! However, as you may have noticed, this mod is named Uranium Power...So to accommodate fusion, it will need to be renamed

I hope this makes clear my ideas, hopes, and plans for this mod.

[n9103]

Well, it is physically (as in physics) possible to fuse Uranium... not remotely economical or reasonable, probably not even possible with our current technology, but there's no reason to believe it can't be done.

[Fatmice]

Well, it is physically (as in physics) possible to fuse Uranium... not remotely economical or reasonable, probably not even possible with our current technology, but there's no reason to believe it can't be done.

Obviously by fusion I mean fusing hydrogen nuclei.

For those don't know yet, I will split off into another thread by the time 0.7.0 comes around and rename this mod as Atomic Power. Liquius and I have already discussed ahead what to do with this thread and we had both agreed that it is best to split off into another thread and he will request that this thread be closed by a moderator. This will be better for the users of the mod as the information concerning the mod will be neatly plastered to the first post and not buried somewhere on the 17th page of the thread.

In case you missed it, you may want to read the long post that I just posted.

[Xeteth]

I just read your post regarding the future plans of the mod - I really like your ideas and thankyou for not adding meltdowns!

I have done level 1 & 2 chemistry at university level however did not follow it beyond that and as such I don't have the greatest understanding of how the entire system works (only the basics).

One of the major things that I can suggest for the future of this mod is if you (or someone else out there) could do a video explaining the process within the game. At the moment I have somewhat mimicked what is done in the example build but that was more of a copy/paste rather than actually fully understanding what was going on. This would mean that different designs may be possible as well as being able to self-troubleshoot any issues.

Keep up the great work, I really like your thoughts for the future of this mod

[n9103]

I was wondering when that was gonna happen. Good to know you're in agreement, and I'm glad he's been supportive of your work.

Oh, and thanks for pointing out NPS. After overcoming a failure in the heat exchanger, I'm currently running above optimum output, and seeing over 10k revenue per hour. 0 emissions, 7500 points and ~50% YTD profit, including repairs and fuel, seems I've got this one down pretty well.

[Fatmice]

I just read your post regarding the future plans of the mod - I really like your ideas and thankyou for not adding meltdowns!

I have done level 1 & 2 chemistry at university level however did not follow it beyond that and as such I don't have the greatest understanding of how the entire system works (only the basics).

One of the major things that I can suggest for the future of this mod is if you (or someone else out there) could do a video explaining the process within the game. At the moment I have somewhat mimicked what is done in the example build but that was more of a copy/paste rather than actually fully understanding what was going on. This would mean that different designs may be possible as well as being able to self-troubleshoot any issues.

Keep up the great work, I really like your thoughts for the future of this mod

I'm glad you like the mod. There are many ways to build and use the mod so there is no one right way, but some ways are more efficient than others at getting what you want. It all depends on how much power you need and whether you are OCD with getting that very last drop of electric generation. My example build is simply to show what could be done to get the maximum power generation. It is only one of possibly many different builds with equivalent potential.

I had plans to record some tutorial videos to explain the workings of the mod. I suppose I should do this once 0.6.0 is out as that will introduce even more complexity. It is also a good time to show off what's been done before going forward to 0.7.0, as fuel decay and reprocessing are a completely different aspect of power production.

I was wondering when that was gonna happen. Good to know you're in agreement, and I'm glad he's been supportive of your work.

Oh, and thanks for pointing out NPS. After overcoming a failure in the heat exchanger, I'm currently running above optimum output, and seeing over 10k revenue per hour. 0 emissions, 7500 points and ~50% YTD profit, including repairs and fuel, seems I've got this one down pretty well.

NPS is great. It's not too hard once you understand how it works, but the constant tweaking also highlights why that would not work in a Factorio environment. Imagine running back and forth between different reactor buildings to adjust nobs and levers...not fun.

[n9103]

Well, everything regarding the controls on a NPP can be automated, since all adjustments are based on instrument feedback, from control rod adjustments to a full shutdown for refueling and coolant flushing.
I'm sure that a tech-level that has iron and copper ore go in one end and everything from ammunition to computer parts to automated miniature factories come out the other, has overcome that particular hang-up that we're still facing today.

[Fatmice]

You and I are in complete agreement. Indeed, lua code for the fuel decay already has a function that scales fuel decay according to reactor heat output so this is very much like automatic adjustment of control rod. More heat production means faster decay or vice versa. Automatic refueling is done by inserters.

[dog_365]

i have used your reactor build and on 6MG watt i have som times 99 degree water and the reactor is running on 300 degrees

[Fatmice]

i have used your reactor build and on 6MG watt i have som times 99 degree water and the reactor is running on 300 degrees

Your build sounds like it is functioning just fine. The 99 degree water is because of heat dispersion at the (S)/(R) heat exchanger or if you used just heat exchanger (the one that looks like walls) then you did not build a long enough exchange interface. However, 99 degree water is nothing to worry about as it just means you are extracting energy at a rate of 84 KJ/s instead of 85 KJ/s. The reactor running at 300 degrees is because pressurised-water can remain liquid at higher temperature.

[tomcat]

when you implement fuel burnup and reprocessing is there any chance we can start to recover some fluorine as we process the uranium hexafluoride (any kind) to uranium oxide pellets, otherwise the total "mining"cost of a reactor the flourine will far surpass the uranaite cost. i suggest around 30-40% fluorine recovery as a secondary product (liquid output) from the recipes that makes uranium hexafluoride to pellets.

i have already done this to my install after much crashing and WATDO?(eventually worked out i needed to change recipe to the chem plant)

currently my math is as follows: 50 fluorine used to make 75 uranium hexafluoride, so therefore uranium hexaflouride is 2/3rds fluorine, if i recover 1 flourine per run of 3 hexafluoride to 1 pellet, im recovering 50% of the flourine used, this is for now just a placeholder amount to see if it was possible id think 0.6 or 0.7 would be more appropriate but the final balance is your prerogative il just change my install again

fluorine recovery.png (469.95 KiB) Viewed 14958 times