Make biter aiming harder to trick

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wyvern
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Make biter aiming harder to trick

Post by wyvern »

TL;DR
Spitters and worms being tricked by twitchy movements can be fixed by using short-term average character speed instead of momentary speed for prediction.

What ?
Currently, if you're running in a straight line, worms and spitters predict your position and still hit you. That makes them a stronger enemy which is a good thing. You can trick their predictive aim by running in a zig-zag pattern, which is also nice - it requires some skill and attention.

However, there's another way of making the worms miss most of the time, that's easy to execute and looks kind of stupid: quickly pressing A and D (or S and W). The aim goes way off because any moment you're running to the side, but you actually stay in the same place and shoot the biter nests as if it's not a big deal.

The worms could become slightly smarter if they averaged your speed used for prediction across several game ticks (~10-20 maybe?). That way they'll be still pretty accurate when you're too slow to change the direction of your movements, but won't be tricked by standing in the same spot and just pretending to be running.
Why ?
Tricks and exploits like the one mentioned here make the game difficulty much different for the ones using them and for the ones unaware. Biters being harder to trick will feel smarter and will force the player to actually be more prepared for a fight: research better tech, produce better equipment or build defences instead of going spring cleaning with just a shotgun.

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ssilk
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Re: Make biter aiming harder to trick

Post by ssilk »

I think the Worms are easy to trick them out, but
- I’ve seen multiplayer fights, which are horrible laggy, so you can be lucky to survive such “simple” fights.
- Factorio isn’t a shooter game, it’s more like a puzzle.
- there are lots of people with disabilities playing Factorio, they won’t like this. :)

For me this is a subject for a mod. I recommend to search in mod-suggestions for mods about making the fight harder. Or look for existing mods e.g. Rampant mod.
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jodokus31
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Re: Make biter aiming harder to trick

Post by jodokus31 »

wyvern wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:05 am
looks kind of stupid: quickly pressing A and D (or S and W).
My poor hand. I cannot do this, longterm
Maybe someone writes a mod to simulate that? :D

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NotRexButCaesar
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Re: Make biter aiming harder to trick

Post by NotRexButCaesar »

jodokus31 wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:17 am
wyvern wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:05 am
looks kind of stupid: quickly pressing A and D (or S and W).
My poor hand. I cannot do this, longterm
Maybe someone writes a mod to simulate that? :D
Hold down A and press/release D
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jodokus31
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Re: Make biter aiming harder to trick

Post by jodokus31 »

NotRexButCaesar wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:36 am
jodokus31 wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:17 am
wyvern wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:05 am
looks kind of stupid: quickly pressing A and D (or S and W).
My poor hand. I cannot do this, longterm
Maybe someone writes a mod to simulate that? :D
Hold down A and press/release D
Good point. I currently run in big circles and it works ok-ish. Although, the acid puddles are increasing over time...

nuhll
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Re: Make biter aiming harder to trick

Post by nuhll »

as far as i understand tehy intentionally made it like this. I think it fits and makes sense and is fun.

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MEOWMI
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Re: Make biter aiming harder to trick

Post by MEOWMI »

The old projectiles were homing ("perfect hit") and back then you only had a very narrow window to dodge them by outrunning them, only accessible if you were really fast.

They probably did away with them for a reason. Not to mention the current spit pools are so boderline overpowered that I don't think it would be fun to make it even more difficult.

The power armor zigzag is extremely powerful for avoiding projectile hits, but it is somewhat of a hidden mechanic and I think it's a nice technique to reward skilled players with.

Besides, by the time you have good powerarmor you also have a plethora of other really strong weapons at your disposal, and until then, every other method of zigzagging is a little imperfect and requires even more skill to pull off repeatedly and reliably.

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Re: Make biter aiming harder to trick

Post by blazespinnaker »

Yeah, hopefully enemy AI will improve. There is a lot of well thought out PvE mechanics in Factorio, between all the weapons and mobs. A lot of invested time and energy.

It's a shame to just give up on it like they seem to have.

In particular, artillery on islands with logistics chest is pretty much end of PvE right now.

I look at all the artillery pics in the main menu screen and just shake my head. Really? Why bother with all that nonsense.
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Re: Make biter aiming harder to trick

Post by NotRexButCaesar »

blazespinnaker wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:02 pm
In particular, artillery on islands with logistics chest is pretty much end of PvE right now.

I look at all the artillery pics in the main menu screen and just shake my head. Really? Why bother with all that nonsense.
Because it is both more fun and more convenient.
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Re: Make biter aiming harder to trick

Post by blazespinnaker »

I'll skip the commentary as it's offtopic from the main point, except to say it really is more convenient to use artillery islands. Try it out!

As for the original suggestion, that really only gets you so far. Try taking out a large biter base with that :) This is why there are acid splashes.
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Re: Make biter aiming harder to trick

Post by wyvern »

ssilk wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:41 am
For me this is a subject for a mod.
Making it a mod makes sense I guess
blazespinnaker wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:06 pm
Try taking out a large biter base with that
Sure not going to work and I don't think pushing large bases should be harder (that's also the reason I'm not just looking for a mod with tougher enemies). This change would actually only affect the early game where you currently can push with the most basic military tech if you use the trick.

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