[1.1.3] Rail signal's output signals names need to change

Post your ideas and suggestions how to improve the game.

Moderator: ickputzdirwech

superstalkerX
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:53 pm
Contact:

[1.1.3] Rail signal's output signals names need to change

Post by superstalkerX »

Names such as Red or Blue are incomprehensible to their nature. WHAT DOES IT MEAN?!?

With the new updates and the drive to make the game mechanics' descriptions and names more uniform and comprehensible. One thing that has been bugging me is the fact that the rail signals names are not clear. Sure, veteran players will know what they mean and most people know that red means stop, green means go, but what does blue mean? You can hover the mouse over the name of the signal to look at the tooltip but in my opinion, it is a bad design to force players to read tooltips for understanding what the original function means. The names should clearly equate what the function does and for new players to quickly understand what they mean or do.

Image

User avatar
valneq
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1128
Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:43 am
Contact:

Re: [1.1.3] Rail signal's output signals names need to change

Post by valneq »

New players will learn about the meaning of the signal states in the mini-tutorials, I would guess.

ralfoeldi
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:36 pm
Contact:

Re: [1.1.3] Rail signal's output signals names need to change

Post by ralfoeldi »

Saying what is not good is the easy part.

Any "Ideas and Suggestions" regarding what the names should be?

superstalkerX
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:53 pm
Contact:

Re: [1.1.3] Rail signal's output signals names need to change

Post by superstalkerX »

ralfoeldi wrote: ↑
Tue Dec 01, 2020 7:27 am
Saying what is not good is the easy part.

Any "Ideas and Suggestions" regarding what the names should be?
red > Blocked
Yellow > Incoming
Green > Clear
Blue > Impeded OR Obstruction

these are ideas that come to mind, but I'm sure others will be able to find words that would be a better fit.

superstalkerX
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:53 pm
Contact:

Re: [1.1.3] Rail signal's output signals names need to change

Post by superstalkerX »

valneq wrote: ↑
Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:01 am
New players will learn about the meaning of the signal states in the mini-tutorials, I would guess.
that's not the point.

It's like when a weatherman is lying about the weather for the day. individuals will eventually figure it out but it's still a hindrance to the learning process.

ralfoeldi
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:36 pm
Contact:

Re: [1.1.3] Rail signal's output signals names need to change

Post by ralfoeldi »

superstalkerX wrote: ↑
Tue Dec 01, 2020 7:43 am
red > Blocked
Yellow > Incoming
Green > Clear
Blue > Impeded OR Obstruction
Now it gets interesting. Blue actually means "it depends"...
Last edited by ralfoeldi on Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

phidias0303
Manual Inserter
Manual Inserter
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:15 pm
Contact:

Re: [1.1.3] Rail signal's output signals names need to change

Post by phidias0303 »

maybe like

green - proceed / clear
yellow - caution
red - stop

User avatar
ickputzdirwech
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 641
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 10:16 am
Contact:

Re: [1.1.3] Rail signal's output signals names need to change

Post by ickputzdirwech »

Kind of proofs his point :lol:

Very short explanation for chain signals could be

green > All exits clear
yellow > Reserved
Red > All exits blocked
Blue > Some exits clear

I want to add that so far I never used circuits in combination with signals.
Mods: Shortcuts for 1.1, ick's Sea Block, ick's vanilla tweaks
Tools: Atom language pack
Text quickly seems cold and unfriendly. Be careful how you write and interpret what others have written.
- A reminder for me and all who read what I write

foamy
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 381
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:14 am
Contact:

Re: [1.1.3] Rail signal's output signals names need to change

Post by foamy »

ickputzdirwech wrote: ↑
Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:47 am
Kind of proofs his point :lol:

Very short explanation for chain signals could be

green > All exits clear
yellow > Reserved
Red > All exits blocked
Blue > Some exits clear

I want to add that so far I never used circuits in combination with signals.
Yeah, and those are short enough that they could be dropped into the circuit screen without issue. Also means the rail signals could be recoloured for colourblind users without leaving artifact names behind.

(I use circuits and signals frequently myself -- though somewhat less so since the intro of train limiters in 1.1)

User avatar
Deadlock989
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 2384
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:41 pm

Re: [1.1.3] Rail signal's output signals names need to change

Post by Deadlock989 »

superstalkerX wrote: ↑
Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:53 am
but in my opinion, it is a bad design
It's like when a weatherman is lying about the weather for the day
The sheer arrogance of coming in here and telling folks their game is badly designed absolutely astonishes me.

Recently there has been this trend for threads here picking at the most pathetic inconsequentialities and calling it "bad design".

Today's is "it's bad design to expect people to have experienced a traffic light once in their lives".

It needs to stop.
"If Stalin had a good writeup on programming, would linking that be dangerous?"

superstalkerX
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:53 pm
Contact:

Re: [1.1.3] Rail signal's output signals names need to change

Post by superstalkerX »

Deadlock989 wrote: ↑
Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:46 am
superstalkerX wrote: ↑
Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:53 am
but in my opinion, it is a bad design
The sheer arrogance of coming in here and telling folks their game is badly designed absolutely astonishes me.

Recently there has been this trend for threads here picking at the most pathetic inconsequentialities and calling it "bad design".

Todays is "it's bad design to expect people to have experienced a traffic light once in their lives".

It needs to stop.
Chill dude. I was nearly stating my opinion of this very specific topic. There is no need to start getting heated over it.

I have yet to find a single traffic light that has a blue light. Have you? Also, these signals do not act the same way as a traffic light. A traffic light sorts and regulates traffic, with red means stop, green means go, etc.
rail signals are different. Red means that there is a blockage somewhere, yellow for incoming traffic, etc. It is not a simple one to one conversion but they are similar.

Also, just to remind everyone from the first post. This issue is inconsequential to veteran players. it the new players that need this change.

ralfoeldi
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:36 pm
Contact:

Re: [1.1.3] Rail signal's output signals names need to change

Post by ralfoeldi »

superstalkerX wrote: ↑
Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:02 am
This issue is inconsequential to veteran players. it the new players that need this change.
And new players don't use circuits... If you need to know the signal names, you're dealing with circuits, with train path finding etc. None of that is possible without reading the docs. So yes, chill dude. This is a non-issue.

foamy
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 381
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:14 am
Contact:

Re: [1.1.3] Rail signal's output signals names need to change

Post by foamy »

ralfoeldi wrote: ↑
Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:06 am
superstalkerX wrote: ↑
Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:02 am
This issue is inconsequential to veteran players. it the new players that need this change.
And new players don't use circuits... If you need to know the signal names, you're dealing with circuits, with train path finding etc. None of that is possible without reading the docs. So yes, chill dude. This is a non-issue.
It's trivial to change the name to something more descriptive, and simply good practice to boot. I dunno why people get so up in arms over others pointing out ways the game could be improved.

superstalkerX
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:53 pm
Contact:

Re: [1.1.3] Rail signal's output signals names need to change

Post by superstalkerX »

ralfoeldi wrote: ↑
Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:06 am
superstalkerX wrote: ↑
Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:02 am
This issue is inconsequential to veteran players. it the new players that need this change.
And new players don't use circuits... If you need to know the signal names, you're dealing with circuits, with train pathfinding etc. None of that is possible without reading the docs. So yes, chill dude. This is a non-issue.
This is not just a circuit issue, the colors mean things in other contexts than just circuits. such as building a rail network.

You say that you have to stop playing a game and read documentation to use and understand the game's features? You don't find that in the least bit off-putting?

User avatar
Deadlock989
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 2384
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:41 pm

Re: [1.1.3] Rail signal's output signals names need to change

Post by Deadlock989 »

superstalkerX wrote: ↑
Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:30 am
You say that you have to stop playing a game and read documentation to use and understand the game's features? You don't find that in the least bit off-putting?
Oh, the horror. You actually had to read an entire tooltip. That is exactly like "when a weatherman lies".

I grew up with games that came with a printed manual. Good times.
"If Stalin had a good writeup on programming, would linking that be dangerous?"

superstalkerX
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:53 pm
Contact:

Re: [1.1.3] Rail signal's output signals names need to change

Post by superstalkerX »

Deadlock989 wrote: ↑
Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:36 am
superstalkerX wrote: ↑
Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:30 am
You say that you have to stop playing a game and read documentation to use and understand the game's features? You don't find that in the least bit off-putting?
Oh, the horror. You actually had to read an entire tooltip. That is exactly like "when a weatherman lies".

I grew up with games that came with a printed manual. Good times.
you know, you just complained about my previous statement being pure arrogance yet you post something like "Oh, the horror". Practice what you preach

User avatar
Deadlock989
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 2384
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:41 pm

Re: [1.1.3] Rail signal's output signals names need to change

Post by Deadlock989 »

superstalkerX wrote: ↑
Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:53 am
you know, you just complained about my previous statement being pure arrogance yet you post something like "Oh, the horror". Practice what you preach
Stop wasting your time, mate. Maybe go and read a book. See what fresh lies you can uncover.
"If Stalin had a good writeup on programming, would linking that be dangerous?"

User avatar
ickputzdirwech
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 641
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 10:16 am
Contact:

Re: [1.1.3] Rail signal's output signals names need to change

Post by ickputzdirwech »

The best thing you can do if you don't like an idea is just not comment on it imo. It will soon be buried under a heap of new ideas anyway. And in most cases forgotten forever. Getting a discussion started only brings (unwanted) attention to the topic. Also as a friendly hopefully open minded community we should grant everyone the option to make pretty much any suggestion they like. At the end it's the devs decision if they want to take it on or not and we should accept their decisions even of we don't agree with them.

Back on topic: I think the issue with this idea is that it doesn't solve the problem of having to connect the colors of the chain signal with their meaning. If the suggestion were implemented you would have to know which color corresponds to which described state. Right now it is the other way around you have to know which state correspond to which color. In both cases you have to have some way to tell the player the connection. The devs solved this with tooltips.

The default virtual signals a chain signal outputs correspond to the color the chain signals have. This might be considered enough information for a player to make the connection. This would mean that changing the description would be sufficient. I am personally not so sure. What I would therefore propose are small LEDs like in the entity status followed by a short description. The tooltips would of course have to stay.

I do also think however, that it could just stay as it is. Maybe it is not the best solution, but everything is sufficiently explained already.
Mods: Shortcuts for 1.1, ick's Sea Block, ick's vanilla tweaks
Tools: Atom language pack
Text quickly seems cold and unfriendly. Be careful how you write and interpret what others have written.
- A reminder for me and all who read what I write

superstalkerX
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:53 pm
Contact:

Re: [1.1.3] Rail signal's output signals names need to change

Post by superstalkerX »

ickputzdirwech wrote: ↑
Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:00 am

I think the issue with this idea is that it doesn't solve the problem of having to connect the colors of the chain signal with their meaning.
You make a valid point.

Currently, the signals are this:
Image
Red = Red Signal
Yellow = Yellow Signal
Green = Green Signal
Blue = Blue Signal

To me, this doesn't convey enough info because of course, we know the blue signal is blue. IF the names were changed it would look something like the following.
Image
All exits blocked = Red Signal
Reserved = Yellow Signal
All exits clear = Green Signal
Some exits clear = Blue Signal

with this, users would quickly be able to know what each signal means at a glance. Users will put the color with the meaning. If a user wishes to change the signal, then they would know what each color would already mean.

Of the two, this feels like the lesser of the two evils.

dangerarea
Manual Inserter
Manual Inserter
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:15 am
Contact:

Re: [1.1.3] Rail signal's output signals names need to change

Post by dangerarea »

I think this is another example of something that makes sense if you either know it or if you really think about it. It's got to be a hard thing for a developer to do when they're so linked to a game.

I think that after reading it for a while it might make sense to stay the same but it's made me really try to think of the meanings of signals...

The wiki says:
If the chain signal has only one exit, it doesn't allow the train to enter its block, if the train would have to stop in said block.
Since trains react to chain signals based on their own path, chain signals before a crossing will not stop trains if the other track's exit is blocked.
If there are several chain signals before a regular one, a train waits before the first chain signal if the block after the regular signal is occupied.
If a chain signal switches to green, all exits are free.
If it switches to yellow, the block is reserved for a train and all other entrance signals of that block turn red.
If it switches to red, all exits are occupied.
If it switches to blue, some but not all exits are free. In this case trains may or may not stop, depending on their path.
If it is blinking, it is not on a rail, or unable to divide it into separate blocks.
That still seems rather complicated but gives a good technical description.

Essentially (but not tooltip friendly):

Red - no available route past this signal
Yellow - caution, slow down and stop at the next signal
Green - all clear, go go go
Blue - some routes are available (but it might not be yours)

If something is making people think this hard it might be worth reviewing, even if the outcome is no change.

Post Reply

Return to β€œIdeas and Suggestions”