More precise map generation options

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Kobrar
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More precise map generation options

Post by Kobrar » Sat Jan 10, 2015 11:16 am

I tried to generate a map for me which would force me to use trains a lot. So I decided I would go with large rich, but scarce deposits, but as it turned out, they were larger than my screen. I turned them down to small, but their size is still quite big. Also, several times I had literally no copper within a lightyear. So here comes my suggestion:

THE IDEA ITSELF:

-add advanced options in map generation, which would allow you to specify exactly how much stuff you want in a deposit if you like, how far apart they should be etc.
-always ensure there is every necessary resource in sufficient quantity in the starting area

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Re: More precise map generation options

Post by FishSandwich » Sat Jan 10, 2015 11:20 am

In the mean time, you could try using the Resource Spawner Overhaul mod. It spawns a few resources at your starting area to give you what you need to start up, and everything else is spawned further away so that you'd have to use trains to get them.

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ssilk
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Re: More precise map generation options

Post by ssilk » Sat Jan 10, 2015 11:43 am

For that case I recommend to create a map or, as fish said, the RSO a mod.

I want to explain something: The world generator creates a world by random. You have a chance, that it all balances out, but principally it is not possible to generate an endless world by random, but have all resources in reach, that would mean, the world is not random.

But that is what you wanted: a random map which for some special condition "not so random".

That ain't gonna work. :) make the needed changes yourself, with the current sliders it isn't possible, or only possible, if you shrink some other part of the world generator.

See also that suggestion: https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... f=6&t=4692
Especially the second page https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... 2&start=10

TL;DR: the current world generator should stay as it is; instead the task should be how to create maps that guarantee any kind of beginning state. And that could be done only by scripting, the key is here the map editor and creating worlds from parts of the world generator and blending them together via scripting.
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Re: More precise map generation options

Post by Resand » Sat Jan 10, 2015 9:04 pm

I don't really care how random you want the map generator, but imo it needs an overhaul.

Getting a map I like seem impossible.

Either I get nothing of one or more resources or I get enough to last me to the end game. Both of these makes for boring games.
And it need to stop putting me on a bloody island.

It can't be that hard to generate a random map, then takes a chunk of it and do another less random pass over that. Just to make sure it's a sane map and give the player an option to pick how they want to the map to play out.

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Re: More precise map generation options

Post by Marconos » Sun Jan 11, 2015 3:55 am

I agree with some of this.

The spawn area needs to have enough of each resource to get you going. The amount is configurable by the settings (rich starting area, sparse etc.).
The current setting do random generation for the rest of the map.

It usually takes me about 20 - 30 starts to get something that I can actually work with. Without a starting area that is decent you can have a horrible game. The rest of the generation I'm ok with.

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Re: More precise map generation options

Post by Rakshasa » Sun Jan 11, 2015 7:05 am

Another issue is that the same map generator settings get used no matter how far you go, so the map itself feels like an endless expanse of sameness.

There needs to be more macro-level differences to the map.

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Re: More precise map generation options

Post by ssilk » Sun Jan 11, 2015 8:10 am

Resand wrote: It can't be that hard to generate a random map, then takes a chunk of it and do another less random pass over that. Just to make sure it's a sane map and give the player an option to pick how they want to the map to play out.
That's exactly what is not so easy.

The map you see is not generated before you start to play, it is generated when you discover it. Well, it is of course possible to look, if you are standing on a small island. But it's not possible to look if the island is just bigger, cause that needs to generate that many chunks.

The same with resources: you need to generate a lot of chunks to see, if you have good enough start conditions. That may take several seconds. And then? Just replacing a chunk will look, like if you cut out a rectangle and replace it with something else.

In other words: The map generation is slow. You cannot implement something, which looks, if this map seed is nice, before you play. You need to play it, to look. :)
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Re: More precise map generation options

Post by Kobrar » Wed Jan 14, 2015 5:32 pm

ssilk wrote: The same with resources: you need to generate a lot of chunks to see, if you have good enough start conditions. That may take several seconds. And then? Just replacing a chunk will look, like if you cut out a rectangle and replace it with something else.

In other words: The map generation is slow. You cannot implement something, which looks, if this map seed is nice, before you play. You need to play it, to look. :)
You seem to insist on current generation algorithm to be the only one to be used ever. I mean, it works really well with terrain, but it is obviously not fit for balanced resources. A properly implemented algorithm using some grid for resource placement could be better for balanced gameplay, while the current one would be just better for those "random" games. If factorio won't offer a thing like a "balanced gameplay", it may be critisized for that on launch.

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Re: More precise map generation options

Post by katyal » Wed Jan 14, 2015 6:32 pm

I don't think ssilk is trying to say he's opposed to changing the map generator. He was mostly pointing out that:

1. generating the map is slow
2. because it is so slow it is only created when the player come near to a new part
3. because the map is not created before you actually visit it you cannot inspect it in advance to know if it is good.

Think of the map in factorio as a jigsaw puzzle, the starting area is one piece, when the player walks to the edge the game creates the next piece in that direction. Before you go to the edge no one, not even the game knows what the next piece looks like. There is nothing to do a pass over it hasn't been created.

A map in factorio has the potential to have more surface area than the Earth, I have a decent computer and generating a 2048x2048 square takes about 3-5 minutes, pre-rendering a map would never work for factorio.

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Re: More precise map generation options

Post by ssilk » Thu Jan 15, 2015 2:09 am

Kobrar wrote: You seem to insist on current generation algorithm to be the only one to be used ever.
Not much to add to Katyal's answer: you want to have two completely opposed needs:

- spreading the resources equally on the map
- having "balanced" resources near the base.

That ain't gonna work. :) you cannot say: I want to have salt and pepper evenly spread by random over my tomatoes AND when I look at one tomato, the number of salt and pepper corns should be between 20 and 25 each.

Perhaps I should explain the map generator?

The current map generator is currently simple implementation of Perlin Noise. See Links on that page https://forums.factorio.com/wiki/inde ... _generator

Such algorithms tend to behave at some point quite differently, when you change them too much. It's a bad idea to change such quite explored algorithms too much.

Indeed the world generator uses two map generators (same algorithm but with different parameters): one for the starting area and one for the rest. The two maps are "blended" from one to the other map, sometimes you can see this zone around your staring zone.

This is also my idea: having more of such zones. Having "pre-salted and pre-peppered tomatoes", which you can place to guarantee some equal distributed resources.
There is nothing against implementing more map algorithms, for example a fractal landscape algorithm. Or having landscape, which changes with the time.

But in the end, the world generator for Factorio fulfills the following needs:

- deterministic
same starting conditions (map seed) generates the same map. Exactly the same.
This is needed, cause for multiplayer, when a new player finds a new pice of map.
- speed
The map is created in chunks, a chunk is 32*32 tiles, that 1024 tiles to be generated and that within 1/60 second, while doing much other stuff.
- scalability
The map can be generated in parallel on different CPUs or computers
- randomness
The map should look random, equally distributed
- and some more I forgot:)
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