Cliff deconstruction is broken

[elifyinght]

TL;DR

Stop pesky robots removing my cliffs without permission.

I feel this is almost a bug.

What ?

I don't really care how you fix it.

Perhaps allowing the default deconstruction planner to be customized and using that whenever placing a blueprint or ghost would provide enough flexibility around the new behavior.

Why ?

Cliffs are a strategic resource.

Like many people cliffs have frustrated my efforts to build the ultimate factory. But while much of the time they get in the way of our factories they are also essential as fortified barriers.

The recent (0.17 branch) changes to the cliffs, deconstruction planner, and construction bots leave cliffs as little more than an annoyance. Placing any ghost marks cliffs for deconstruction. While this is a great feature cliffs can no longer be integrated into a wall. While walls can still be manually placed alongside a cliff with no risk of destroying them when you have construction bots you are going to be using those to place walls via blueprint or ghost. In these cases running the wall up to the cliff is almost certain to mark the cliff for destruction. I love the way cliffs break up the open space; but, given the inconvenience cliffs present and the lack of benefits there seems little point in turning them on.

The deconstruction planner allows for a custom deconstruction planner to be set to ignore cliffs. Custom deconstruction planners cannot be used when placing blueprints or ghosts. As such this offers little help.

Blueprints do not allow adjusting objects to remove when something is built over the top of something. So cliff removal cannot be disabled here.
I have looked for another shortcut or modifier key to change the way things are marked for removal when placing a blueprint. This has turned up nothing.

Global options don’t allow customizing what is automatically deconstructed.

While these changes should be little more than an inconvenience, I have found the issue ruins enough cliffs that I have avoided playing much of 0.17.

[PyroFire]

I don't really care how you fix it.

Put a deconstruction planner in your inventory then right click on it.

[ssilk]

Yes. Or press shift while deconstruction. And besides that: cliffs are only strategic in the first third of a game, after that they become most times more annoying than helpful.

[urza99814]

I think OP has a decent suggestion really. It's very common for me to have a bunch of random cliffs marked for deconstruction that I don't actually want deconstructed...and then as I walk around I end up losing cliff explosives that I might be intending for something else.

I try to build an outpost... But there's cliffs in the way and I have no explosives. But it doesn't matter, because the cliffs are only blocking walls and cliffs ARE walls. The problem is that I still can't place the outpost blueprint without the cliffs being marked for destruction, even though I can't and don't want to destroy them. And then the next time I walk past that area carrying cliff explosives for some other task, they all get deployed and I have to go get more. Plus there's a bunch of deconstruction orders cluttering up the map.

AND...since cliff explosives don't tend to be used in large enough quantities to bother automating it, they're far less likely to be in the logistics network. Which means if you have this problem somewhere with roboport coverage, the limitation on the number of concurrent orders means any large building projects also get delayed until the erroneous destruction order gets cleared somehow.

[Honktown]

If you want I could try to make a mod that prevents cliffs being destroyable by bots. I'd have to try some things, because strangely there's not an event raised when a character used a blueprint... I'd have to check if "on_marked_for_deconstruction" triggers for ghost-placing.

Edit: I'm going to make it. I need to do an errand first but when I get back, it shouldn't take long to do the testing and make the mod if it's possible.

[conn11]

This is only symptomatic, you can come up with myriads of scenarios where one might want a actual deconstruction planner in a blueprint. Rather then a specific solution for very specific problems and the inherent danger of overclutting the UI or nowbody knowing about them, a much more major and broader approch is needed.
Like putting custom deconstruction planners into bluprints. But it's certainly not limited to that. The whole system needs a good boost of flexibility.
Not exactly a new branch of suggestions, exemplary two more of the more recent in the general direction:

your own ssilk for programmable blueprints:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=76499&p=460740#p460740

and a somewhat related: more flexibility in blueprints, by more advanced editing from mrvn:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=52798&p=464792#p464792

I compare it to the circuit network, rather than having pages of special combinators with very small applications, we have very few, from which most of the desired functions can be set up.
The benefit is the same as it would be for blueprints, keeping the system simple for beginners and small tasks but also giving the optional possibility for complex an very specific designs.

[Squelch]

While this doesn't directly address the OP's request, there is a workaround that I use extensively.

1. When placing a blueprint in an area that you may wish to preserve some of the landscape, switch off your personal roboport, or, if the area is covered by a static roboport, temporarily disable it.
2. Place the blueprint.
3. Select the standard deconstruction planner from the toolbar or ALT+D
4. Shift click each object you do not wish to be deconstructed. (It's not instantaneous, so hold the click for a short while)

This allows the removal of any objects from the deconstruction queue, then it's just a matter of letting your personal robots get to work, or enable the house robots via the logistics network as usual.

Yes it's a little more work, but this is the cost of having ground clearance automated by default as I would imagine many people would prefer. I would suggest that any "automatic" solution offered will not suit everybody's playstyle, no matter how many myriad options are made available.

[Edit to Add]
After looking at it again, the lack of instantaneousness is due the deconstruction planner cancel also working as an area selection. This would allow several objects to be excluded from the the queue. I must have been moving the pointer a fraction to select individual objects, which is still viable for fine grained removal of course.

See this topic where whitelist/blacklist filters in construction planner are being discussed
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=78843

[Honktown]

Okay, so on_nth_tick is not behaving as expected. I should've known

[Honktown]

Alright, here we go:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1cSNYT ... VtHGMTQKI7

Give that a spin. I'll play with it a few more minutes and upload to the mod portal if it's working as I expect. Any discussions can be sent there. It'll be called "Bots Ignore Cliffs" if I name it properly

Edit: I'm actually going to name it "blueprints ignore cliffs". I probably need a few minutes because I want to only do it when a blueprint is in the player's hand, and not always.

Wait... a deconstruction planner is a blueprint set-up???

It's not a bug it's a feature. "No Cliff Deconstruction" is the new name. I'll figure it out and add a setting later.

[Honktown]

Found the bug. Decon planner can deconstruct cliffs now, blueprints and copy-paste work as expected.

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/NoCliffDeconstruction

[elifyinght]

I don't really care how you fix it.

Put a deconstruction planner in your inventory then right click on it.

To clarify my concern I would like to not deconstruct cliffs when constructing other blueprints. The most common scenario for me is when using a blueprint to place walls - or some other defensive structure.

The deconstruction planner on it's own works as expected. I can disable deconstruction of cliffs without an issue in the planner. Nice as this is it's not helping me place my walls.

[eradicator]

While playing IR the only solution i found works well is to stragegically not carry any cliff explosives around in my inventory. For base construction you could try to put them into a logistic chest that is only in range of a single roboport - and disable that roboport via a power switch when you don't want your base bots to deconstruct cliffs. It's a bit annoying to manage and you still have to manually un-mark cliffs accidentially marked. :|

A seperate cliff deconstruction (or never-deconstruct-these-) planner would clutter the interface so i'm not sure what a "proper" solution would be.

[elifyinght]

Yes. Or press shift while deconstruction. And besides that: cliffs are only strategic in the first third of a game, after that they become most times more annoying than helpful.

Constructing via blueprint is the issue - not using the deconstruction tools.

The strategic value of cliffs is their indestructibility. No matter what stage of the game you are in infallible barriers are useful. Walls can take a battering but at the cost of constant repairs and replacement. I would rather take the option that requires no maintenance.

[elifyinght]

While this doesn't directly address the OP's request, there is a workaround that I use extensively.

1. When placing a blueprint in an area that you may wish to preserve some of the landscape, switch off your personal roboport, or, if the area is covered by a static roboport, temporarily disable it.
2. Place the blueprint.
3. Select the standard deconstruction planner from the toolbar or ALT+D
4. Shift click each object you do not wish to be deconstructed. (It's not instantaneous, so hold the click for a short while)

This allows the removal of any objects from the deconstruction queue, then it's just a matter of letting your personal robots get to work, or enable the house robots via the logistics network as usual.

Yes it's a little more work, but this is the cost of having ground clearance automated by default as I would imagine many people would prefer. I would suggest that any "automatic" solution offered will not suit everybody's playstyle, no matter how many myriad options are made available.

[Edit to Add]
After looking at it again, the lack of instantaneousness is due the deconstruction planner cancel also working as an area selection. This would allow several objects to be excluded from the the queue. I must have been moving the pointer a fraction to select individual objects, which is still viable for fine grained removal of course.

See this topic where whitelist/blacklist filters in construction planner are being discussed
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=78843

The workaround is a decent suggestion; but, it does not help me much. Most of my construction planning is far away from my character. The areas I'm constructing in are already covered by a robotics network which I cannot disable remotely. I can deconstruct the roboports; but, it's a pain. And then I have to rebuild them.

[elifyinght]

While playing IR the only solution i found works well is to stragegically not carry any cliff explosives around in my inventory. For base construction you could try to put them into a logistic chest that is only in range of a single roboport - and disable that roboport via a power switch when you don't want your base bots to deconstruct cliffs. It's a bit annoying to manage and you still have to manually un-mark cliffs accidentially marked.

A seperate cliff deconstruction (or never-deconstruct-these-) planner would clutter the interface so i'm not sure what a "proper" solution would be.

Agreed - this is by far the closest to a usable workaround I have seen.

Somehow, despite my best efforts, I end up eventually dropping cliff explosives somewhere my construction robots can get their actuators on them. Unmarking marked cliffs is a painful process and can easily result in some cliffs being missed.

Still the best workaround.

[elifyinght]

Found the bug. Decon planner can deconstruct cliffs now, blueprints and copy-paste work as expected.

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/NoCliffDeconstruction

Great idea - and very quick.

I will give it a go.

[Squelch]

The workaround is a decent suggestion; but, it does not help me much. Most of my construction planning is far away from my character. The areas I'm constructing in are already covered by a robotics network which I cannot disable remotely. I can deconstruct the roboports; but, it's a pain. And then I have to rebuild them.

I see, yes that is a frustration, and I hadn't considered that use case as I have grown so used to having to be on location in these situations.

While playing IR the only solution i found works well is to stragegically not carry any cliff explosives around in my inventory. For base construction you could try to put them into a logistic chest that is only in range of a single roboport - and disable that roboport via a power switch when you don't want your base bots to deconstruct cliffs. It's a bit annoying to manage and you still have to manually un-mark cliffs accidentially marked.

A seperate cliff deconstruction (or never-deconstruct-these-) planner would clutter the interface so i'm not sure what a "proper" solution would be.

The caveat there is that even if a roboport has its power cut, it retains residual power that needs to be depleted before it becomes inactive. I have tried this method too, but found it just as frustrating to manage, so travelling to the site is what I have chosen to resort to.

Do have a look at this other suggestion made a few days before this.
Deconstruction in blueprints
If implemented, would surely meet all of these requirements? I would hazard a guess that technically, this current topic is a duplicate.

It feels like the blueprint planner still needs refinements such as this, and I hope there is still work in progress. In the meantime, Mods can be called on. While I haven't tried @Honktown's mod yet, I think it's brilliant that there are players that can do this, and have the tools provided to make such changes.

[elifyinght]

The caveat there is that even if a roboport has its power cut, it retains residual power that needs to be depleted before it becomes inactive. I have tried this method too, but found it just as frustrating to manage, so travelling to the site is what I have chosen to resort to.

Do have a look at this other suggestion made a few days before this.
Deconstruction in blueprints
If implemented, would surely meet all of these requirements? I would hazard a guess that technically, this current topic is a duplicate.

It feels like the blueprint planner still needs refinements such as this, and I hope there is still work in progress. In the meantime, Mods can be called on. While I haven't tried @Honktown's mod yet, I think it's brilliant that there are players that can do this, and have the tools provided to make such changes.

Roboport charge is definitely another spanner in the works of the disable roboport workaround.

I agree - should the suggestion Deconstruction in blueprints be implemented it would be a suitable solution to my issue. That would make this a duplicate.