Rail yard speed limits

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Khyron
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Rail yard speed limits

Post by Khyron » Tue Dec 30, 2014 2:33 am

Problem: A train at max speed doesn't give the player much time to step out of the way. It's pretty easy to get killed if you're walking through a station area and the train is not stopping there.

Solution: Create a way to set a train speed limit for certain sections of track. It would probably be tied to the signals system so that it can be implemented on a per-block basis. Just add a pop-up when you click on a signal and give it a some radio buttons for various speeds. This gives the player some control options.

edit: To overcome the UI limitations (the need to zoom out; max screen resolution, etc) there are two other suggestions that have been raised: Either of these solutions will help in areas where the player has not decided to set a speed limit.

Safety first!
Last edited by Khyron on Sat Jan 03, 2015 2:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rail yard speed limits

Post by Fireshot415 » Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:00 pm

I second this! Having played (and nearly been run over many times along with death occurring more times than I care to mention) with trains a safety area would be nice! Also perhaps an area where the train will stop and not enter if a player is on the tracks, this could also help!

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Re: Rail yard speed limits

Post by Nova » Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:09 pm

I think a special rule "trains drive slower the closer they come to the player" would be worth to be considered.
We have to think about this: Should the train stop exactly before the player or still drive slowly against him?
If a player drives with a train, than they should of course not be slower, but what about a car?
What about if a player really wants to be killed by the train? With that considered, the idea of the first post is better.
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Re: Rail yard speed limits

Post by ssilk » Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:56 pm

There was a time, when a player loose health, if he comes too near to an inserter or furnace. ;)

Why should a train stop before a player? How lame is that? Just don't run on the rails, make place for walking. :)

I think the speed limit is a nice idea. Also "warning light", or accustic warning. See the plans for 0.12!

There are also ideas about reducing speed in curves. And adding new, larger curves, which can be driven with higher speed.
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Re: Rail yard speed limits

Post by Nova » Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:49 am

ssilk wrote:There was a time, when a player loose health, if he comes too near to an inserter or furnace. ;)
What? Are you sure? I have the game since the indigogo campaign, but can't remember this. o_O
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Re: Rail yard speed limits

Post by ssilk » Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:20 pm

I remember avoiding the inserters to some reasons. When I'm thinking about it, I'm not sure, what reason.

Edit: After searching a while I found this: https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... rter#p4891

I think wish and reality have been mixed a bit in my mind. :)
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Re: Rail yard speed limits

Post by DerivePi » Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:39 pm

I don't like the idea of slowing the trains down. How about these suggestions:
- flash red along the edge of the screen when a train is within a certain striking range
- perhaps have the game auto save whenever the player and train come within a certain range.
- have the train cause damage and push the player to the side instead of killing
- as an added feature - add a stick figure tick to the sides of locomotives every time they take out the player - (make it a static variable so its there after the reload)

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Re: Rail yard speed limits

Post by Khyron » Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:05 pm

Wow, I thought this idea was a straightforward improvement. Instead people are coming up with some.. unexpected responses! My suggestion is based on how things work in the real world - we put lower speed limits near schools to give drivers more time to react if a kid runs on to the road; rail yards and sea ports have low speed limits because ships and trains have huge momentum, they take a long time to slow down or stop.
Nova wrote:I think a special rule "trains drive slower the closer they come to the player" would be worth to be considered.
What if you're just standing near but not on the track? The train shouldn't always slow down if you're just nearby or it would become annoying. However, if we made it only trigger when you step on the track that also doesn't work because if you step on the track right when the train is at the edge of your screen it still won't have time to slow down.

The way I imagine my suggestion would be used is to only set a speed limit on the sections of track that the player often walks over, like inside the base. But if it's a setting, the player can use it how they see fit. Automatic things are nice but only if they always do exactly what you expect and what you want.
Nova wrote:We have to think about this: Should the train stop exactly before the player or still drive slowly against him?
I think the train should not stop for the player, but I would like a way to control the speed of the train if I so choose.
Nova wrote:What about if a player really wants to be killed by the train?
:lol:
ssilk wrote:I think the speed limit is a nice idea. Also "warning light", or accustic warning.
Yeah, you can actually sort of use gates like this at present. Just place a few gates along the part of the rail you cross frequently and they can help you know if a train is coming. Of course, they also trigger when you get near, so it can be misleading. A new item like a warning light would also be welcome imho.
DerivePi wrote:I don't like the idea of slowing the trains down.
Well, the default setting would be not to restrict speed so you wouldn't have to do anything.
DerivePi wrote:flash red along the edge of the screen when a train is within a certain striking range.
It's too similar to the biter attack flashing screen.
DerivePi wrote:perhaps have the game auto save whenever the player and train come within a certain range.
Well, letting the train kill the player but making a nearby auto-save is a bit like trolling the player. Also it's not useful in multiplayer games.
DerivePi wrote:have the train cause damage and push the player to the side instead of killing
I think intuitively most people would expect if they were hit by a train moving that fast in a game like this they should die. It would seem cartoonish for the player to just be pushed along or out of the way. I would rather have a sense of realism in that a fast moving train is a risk, but it's a manageable risk if you are given the power to control the machines.

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Re: Rail yard speed limits

Post by Nova » Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:38 pm

Khyron wrote:
Nova wrote:I think a special rule "trains drive slower the closer they come to the player" would be worth to be considered.
What if you're just standing near but not on the track? The train shouldn't always slow down if you're just nearby or it would become annoying. However, if we made it only trigger when you step on the track that also doesn't work because if you step on the track right when the train is at the edge of your screen it still won't have time to slow down.

The way I imagine my suggestion would be used is to only set a speed limit on the sections of track that the player often walks over, like inside the base. But if it's a setting, the player can use it how they see fit. Automatic things are nice but only if they always do exactly what you expect and what you want.
I wasn't killed by the train since... Well, it's ages ago. Why? Because I look where I go. I don't understand how all of the players can get killed so often. I still would like to see a way to make them less dangerous because I see that other people complain.

I don't think that a slower train would be a big problem. It's not like the train only drives 10 km/h, but just not over 100 km/h anymore. The exact value would have to be adjusted. To be exact, my idea is similar to yours, just with a speciality: With my idea the "slow area" is exactly where the player is and moves with him. Maybe we should have this with a special locomotive: A smart one. :)
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Re: Rail yard speed limits

Post by OBAMA MCLAMA » Thu Jan 01, 2015 7:51 pm

Khyron wrote:Instead people are coming up with some.. unexpected responses!
just ignore it, some people tend to bash idea's if there is a way around it, seen it on too many topics.
An idea, is an idea. There is no fault in explaining your idea. The devs will look at it, if they like it then it might actually make it in the game. (when that time comes though)

I remember saying something about "speed limit signals" in the factorio iirc couple weeks ago, everyone loved the idea. James said wasn't possible as a mod so i moved on. I still love the idea and want it.
I thought of speed limit signals when wanting more stuff for trains, like pre-signals!
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Re: Rail yard speed limits

Post by User_Name » Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:52 am

Problem: It is hard to tell if train is coming
Solution you propose: add another in-game item to slow down trains in certain area
It doesn't solve the problem, just create a work-around (e.g. crossing tracks in any other area would still be dangerous)

If you want trains to move slowly, just add 1 second train stop in the area. Same effect.

Better solution: make fast moving train audible from longer distance (optionally: only if player is close to rails)
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Re: Rail yard speed limits

Post by Khyron » Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:48 am

User_Name wrote:It doesn't solve the problem, just create a work-around (e.g. crossing tracks in any other area would still be dangerous)
It's true that this isn't a universal solution, but since posting it there have been a series of ideas suggested which, in concert, do solve all the situations to an adequate degree. In fact, I'll update my first post with the other suggestions that I think make this a universal solution.

The solution I provided gives the player risk management options. It doesn't make the train completely safe - that wasn't my goal.
User_Name wrote:If you want trains to move slowly, just add 1 second train stop in the area. Same effect.
Train stations already serve a purpose. Misappropriating that purpose leads to emergent gameplay, which is fine, but in this case there are significant down sides:
  • This would only reduce the speed for one localised point per station, as opposed to an entire block
  • You would have to add each such train station to every train routing through an area, which would be tedious and clog up your train routes with meaningless stops.
  • You would be inclined to rename all those stops so the train schedules made better sense, which is more tedium.
  • Train stations are visible on the map, so each one you place simply to slow trains down would add clutter to the map.
User_Name wrote:Better solution: make fast moving train audible from longer distance (optionally: only if player is close to rails)
Here are some problems with this solution:
  • It doesn't work for deaf people.
  • It doesn't indicate which line, or which direction the train is coming from.
  • You could mistake the sound for just being sound effects rather than a warning.
  • The noise could easily be annoying unless it's carefully balanced.
  • It would be counter-intuitive to have the audibility of a train be compromised by your proximity to the tracks. In other words: why can I hear the train if I stand here, but not here? What's blocking the noise?

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Re: Rail yard speed limits

Post by MF- » Sat Jan 03, 2015 10:15 am

Will see what will the incomming "big CCnet update" bring.

I am really looking forward to setting up some warning lights near crossings.


PS: Yes, in real life we do put speed limits around schools.
But thats only for the cases where traffic lights weren't installed.

Do we slow down trains near schools? I don't thinks so.
Never seen a school next to a railway crossing, though.

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Re: Rail yard speed limits

Post by Garm » Sat Jan 03, 2015 8:24 pm

MF- wrote: Do we slow down trains near schools? I don't thinks so.
Never seen a school next to a railway crossing, though.
AFAIK trains have speed limits inside whole cities.

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Re: Rail yard speed limits

Post by LordFedora » Sat Jan 03, 2015 9:59 pm

Yep, and need to honk horns every time they approach an intersection

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Re: Rail yard speed limits

Post by MF- » Sun Jan 04, 2015 8:09 am

Afaik they honk only on intersections that lack "the lights"
or on the "honk posts"(not what they were called) mentioned somewhere above


I don't know about any place I could verify they slow down in cities.
Either there is a fenced corridor for the fast+ trains (no reason to slow down)
or it's a slow train stopping everywhere (not designed to go any faster, slows down because it has to stop in the town anyway)

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Re: Rail yard speed limits

Post by sillyfly » Sun Jan 04, 2015 8:12 am

MF- wrote:Afaik they honk only on intersections that lack "the lights"
or on the "honk posts"(not what they were called) mentioned somewhere above
I think those things are very much dependent on local laws. Every country and sometimes every district in the same country may have different rules about these things.

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Re: Rail yard speed limits

Post by LordFedora » Sun Jan 04, 2015 4:58 pm

We get coal trains, they go as fast as they can, but they need to slow down to ~20mph inside of city limits, (i'm not sure why the rails go though town, it might have been once a passenger/cargo train for the town)

but they honk at every crossing, from the county highway where there is no lights, to the crossing in the actual big city it goes through where they got "crash-proof" gates

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Re: Rail yard speed limits

Post by User_Name » Sun Jan 04, 2015 5:05 pm

Khyron wrote:
User_Name wrote:Better solution: make fast moving train audible from longer distance (optionally: only if player is close to rails)
Here are some problems with this solution:
  • It doesn't work for deaf people.
Who cares
[*]It doesn't indicate which line, or which direction the train is coming from.
Who cares. All you need is a warning that fast train is coming.
[*]You could mistake the sound for just being sound effects rather than a warning.
It is sound effect, not a warning.
[*]The noise could easily be annoying unless it's carefully balanced.
Like every other sound effect in the game. So?
[*]It would be counter-intuitive to have the audibility of a train be compromised by your proximity to the tracks. In other words: why can I hear the train if I stand here, but not here? What's blocking the noise?[/list]
1) that's why it may better be optional
2) real life rails behave the same way. You can hear that the train is coming from kilometers away if you get close to rail. Can't hear it otherwise.
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Re: Rail yard speed limits

Post by tobsimon » Wed May 06, 2015 8:11 am

I like the idea of speed limits set on signals. The effect would last until the next signal or stop.

It would diminish the danger of becomming railkill, but not remove it completely (moving trains are dangerous after all).


I also like the idea of the trains honking, if they detect the player (or aliens, or even just dense buildup) standing close to the track ahead of it. Adds atmosphere. Helps to realize the danger.

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