Easier Movement?

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tonberrytoby
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Easier Movement?

Post by tonberrytoby »

For me it becomes very annoying how I have to always move my character when I have to do something.

Maybe the character should move if you click outside of his range. So when the message comes that I need to get closer to build something the character should auto-move close enough.

Also, a jump ability might be nice. I often get annoyed that I have to move on long detours because I have blocked off the path through my factory with inserters and assemblers.
An ability to jump over an inserter would make building factories more easy.
Or maybe even the ability to squeeze between buildings, like you can do with electric poles.

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Re: Easier Movement?

Post by ssilk »

First idea was exactly my thought.

For the second I just read, that there are platforms planned - like in a real factory. I think it belongs to the game, that you need to think about a way to walk. Me for example wondered, why I can stay near an inserter and don't get hit.
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Re: Easier Movement?

Post by MF- »

ssilk wrote:Me for example wondered, why I can stay near an inserter and don't get hit.
That would be an interesting feature.... :P

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Re: Easier Movement?

Post by ssilk »

There are many other things, which can hurt you. Burners, hot water, going over the entry of an underground-belt ... doesn't hit much, just remembers you to leave enough place between the stuff, like in real factories. Fences would be also a good idea to keep you away from the dangerous parts, so that it looks more like in reality.
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Re: Easier Movement?

Post by SilverWarior »

ssilk wrote:There are many other things, which can hurt you. Burners, hot water, going over the entry of an underground-belt
Dont forget triping on conveyor belt especially fast one. Just write "treadmill fail" in youtube to see what I mean :lol:

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Re: Easier Movement?

Post by Dakkanor »

ssilk wrote:...Fences would be also a good idea to keep you away from the dangerous parts, so that it looks more like in reality.
that's what i use walls for, i space out my power plants so that i can have walls around each block of 2*4 engines, this also helps channel creepers towards you and not to destroying your infrastructure, they also make things look like a military operation :)

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Re: Easier Movement?

Post by ssilk »

Ya, but I meant small fences, not walls. Like in rollercoaster Tycoon, where you could add a fence at euch side of a tile.
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Re: Easier Movement?

Post by tonberrytoby »

I like the squeezing in the new version. :)

Now another idea:
How about making and autopickup toggle. Picking up large fields of stuff like after an inventory explosion is quite annoying when you have to hold down the F key all the time.


About that mouse movement. Like in MMOs or nethack.
I tried to introduce the game to my Father yesterday. He likes games like OTTD or Anno. But he refuses to have his fingers laying on the keyboard. So he can't play any game that relies on WASD action.
I also would prefer to manage my factory while leaning back.

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Re: Easier Movement?

Post by Aza-Industries »

I was thinking it would be kewl to have catwalks that go over stuff. Made from a mesh material so you can still see underneath them a bit.
Would also make you factories look more factoryee. :?

So you could just leave places blank to walk around but when you need to get over tons of belts and don't want to walk around you could put a bridge over it.

Ramps and walkway tiles is all you need and it can just connect in any direction.

Just a quick mockup I did. The warning strips were added so you can tell when the vertical part is a ramp.

EDIT: Just realized the walkways are out of proportion with the character.. =/
Image

I guess if that is too unnatural looking you could resort to 2x2 grid for walkways.
Image

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Re: Easier Movement?

Post by ssilk »

tonberrytoby wrote:How about making and autopickup toggle. Picking up large fields of stuff like after an inventory explosion is quite annoying when you have to hold down the F key all the time.
I would like to have a cleaner: some kind of robot which runs around and collects everything in an given area into the players inventory and returns, when nothing is left.
About that mouse movement. Like in MMOs or nethack.
I tried to introduce the game to my Father yesterday. He likes games like OTTD or Anno. But he refuses to have his fingers laying on the keyboard. So he can't play any game that relies on WASD action.
I also would prefer to manage my factory while leaning back.
I really like to be a character in the game, which can be harmed. This has charm.

But I also don't like how to move around, because of technical reasons.
A) Ergonomical reasons. I already talked about, that I've problems with feeling the keys on the keyboard (because I had an accident where I lost the feeling in one of my fingers). I also don't like to sit all the time in the chair and have the fingers on the keyboard. As tonberrytoby I want to lean back sometimes. This especially true, because it is such a long lasting game. You need to have the ability to have different positions, sit differently, look differently. This is only possible when you can use the mouse.

B) The keyboard itself might be also a problem. Not all keyboard support this many keys pressed at once (and not all hands could handle pressing that much, but this is again a point for A)

C) The focus. Either I want to move around (with the character) or I want to built. Factorio tries to make both into one step. This is some kind of "unnatural", because normal people cannot focus on two things at once, they need to learn it first. I mean, it's part of any game to get it handled. It's a good feeling, when you see, that you can kill masses of creepers yourself. But I think this should not be part of the game, when you just built.

Examples: for A) How should I press "F", when I want to move right? I need to shift all fingers and then I've to shift them back. And I cannot think of a better key-combination to do that.
for B) I've an Microsoft Wireless keyboard, and with this, the game-mission is really unplayable for me (I got stuck in level 5). I hate it. :) I lost about 9 lives before I gave up and got my game-keyboard from the cellar. With this it tooks about 3 more lives, but I managed it.
for C) Try to built a very long belt and try to look at the belt and the char at once. Not possible.

I thought about alternatives. I really liked the way, how Rollercoaster Tycoon worked. All parts of this game could be played only with the mouse. On the other hand, the track-editor could be managed only by keyboard. So, when you have been looking around, you could lean back, just scroll, zoom in, zoom out... but when you go into details you have been able to make everthing with the keyboard.

For Factorio this means, that I can move the character by mouse. I click in a direction and the char moves into this direction, no routing. When I stop clicking, the char stops. When you are attacked, you can press SHIFT. Then the char moves backwards. So you are able to shot and run away at once. Maybe I thought not for all details.

The construction-mode: When I want to built a belt for example, I select the belt, build the first step and now I can use the keyboard. W means forward one step. If there is no belt there, it is built. S means backward. The current belt is removed. A means turn left, D turn right. In this mode, the char tries to keep in the building-area automatically so you cannot come into hassle with taking care of both, the char AND the belt. I'm sure, a belt could be built much faster than now like that.
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Re: Easier Movement?

Post by MF- »

I am glad it works how it works, so I want to note that there also exits players who dislike mouses instead.
Building while running works really well, it doesn't feel like multitasking at all.
To sum up - I really like it in the current state.

pressing WASD and nearby keys should be IMO ok on any sane keyboard (which makes your wireless insane, I know.)


It would be nice if you could play of course!

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Re: Easier Movement?

Post by kovarex »

We can have the "go to the desired location when needed" as optional setting.

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Re: Easier Movement?

Post by tonberrytoby »

MF- wrote:I am glad it works how it works, so I want to note that there also exits players who dislike mouses instead.
Building while running works really well, it doesn't feel like multitasking at all.
To sum up - I really like it in the current state.

pressing WASD and nearby keys should be IMO ok on any sane keyboard (which makes your wireless insane, I know.)


It would be nice if you could play of course!
I also agree, that you can work more efficient with the keyboard. And that the game should allow this. But games like ottd or even diabolo allow you to play relaxed without having to use both hands. And the crowd that this game appeals to does include a lot of people like that.

Also, using WASD while holding down the f-key is definitely neither OK nor normal.

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Re: Easier Movement?

Post by MF- »

Yes, that matches the fact that I am not normally running around while holding F.

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Re: Easier Movement?

Post by ssilk »

Stupid question: Why is F and Z needed?
I think this isn't really needed and can be mapped to left and right MB.
More consistent usage: LMB = remove what's the cursor over / RMB = put what you have in hand.

Currently: Remove a belt with LMB. Then run to the place it was and remove the stuff, which was on the belt, before removing it.
Suggested: Remove belt. Then click on some stuff, laying around has same function as F. To remove stuff on a running belt F still should work.
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Re: Easier Movement?

Post by MF- »

I doubt that would allow me to remove a belt that has items constantly running over it.
Usually I don't want to pick up the items. I actually hate when I accidentally pick them up when rotating belts

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Re: Easier Movement?

Post by ssilk »

MF- wrote:I doubt that would allow me to remove a belt that has items constantly running over it.
Removing running items with the mouse doesn't make sense. In this case the cursor is placed on the belt, not the items over it.
So F is just to remove running items, or hidden items. For beginners this isn't needed, which is good.

For example: At the beginning I don't know anything about keyboard and I tried to pick it up with the mouse and wondered very much, why this wasn't working.
Usually I don't want to pick up the items. I actually hate when I accidentally pick them up when rotating belts
Jep. Some kind of more intelligent selection needed.
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Re: Easier Movement?

Post by Arakasi »

I like current state where i can pick up items from running belt without removing the belt.
I also think that grabbing items from ground by F key is not the worst option. Imagine for example backspace. :-D
If you dont want to use the F key, you can always choose different key from keyboard which fits you more.

I wonder whether is possible to map middle click as any action.

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Re: Easier Movement?

Post by MF- »

BTW: I don't really pick up free-lying items.. except from moving belts :D
I don't see any real need for picking items from the ground (which is IRL-uncomfortable action, so it actually even makes sense that it is in-game-uncomfortable, unless you get used to it)

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Re: Easier Movement?

Post by ssilk »

Ok. Begins to get interesting. :)

I keep at my points. There is space for much improvement inn this subject. The current handling of the keyboard/mouse is not "round", doesn't feel finished, is not logical in some cases.
I don't want to go too deep into details, because I don't want to show exactly how this should work; this needs creativity. (You can scroll down for a small list of things I criticize.)

Some of the issues can be simply solved by creating a better default-keyboard mapping; for example map R to middle-mouse (not the best!). Some others need just more logic, like the auto-rotating thing. Others need complete rework, like how can I lean back, when playing.

In the end, many small improvements make a much bigger improvement, than all small improvements counts as single.


[ Critics of controls in more detail:

- not very logical for beginners (items on the ground need another key to pickup than buildings),
- complicated when building things (other games make this much easier, e. g. useful auto-orientation/-turnings)
- doesn't help the player to build big constructions fast; it takes too long time to switch between all the items you need and correct the orientation - and there is plenty more items planned to build.
- has some not so good playable key-combinations, e. g. F or Z and WASD at the same time.
- doesn't switch between modes when building different things. E. g. when building belts it is more probable that I want to built also underground-belts, splitters - not laser turrets.
- doesn't enable me to lean back; I need always to put a hand on the keyboard
- doesn't "feel really good". I don't know exactly the reasons, but one is that it's always needed to move the character to get an overview.

Sometimes I think this would feel so good, if the scrolling worked like in some other games. Othertimes I think the idea of an own character is new and cool and it needs just more optimizing.
]
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