Infinite radar range research is a must now.

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Avezo
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Infinite radar range research is a must now.

Post by Avezo »

Because artillery range can be researched infinitely and it reveals terrain in far greater distance. How does it make sense to use artillery cannon as a radar as it is now?

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Re: Infinite radar range research is a must now.

Post by Ranakastrasz »

Avezo wrote:Because artillery range can be researched infinitely and it reveals terrain in far greater distance.
Makes sense to me. Although having a higher tier of radar also makes sense

Also infinite research isn't exactly infinite. The expense grows VERY fast. Still, I agree, radar needs a range upgrade too. (And mutable range in general)
How does it make sense to use artillery cannon as a radar as it is now?
Because each shell uses a Radar in construction. Hence why they reveal the map as they pass. It makes perfect sense to me.
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Re: Infinite radar range research is a must now.

Post by sathill »

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Unlimited research: radar range

Post by nuhll »

Hi,
i would like a unlimited research for radar range.. :)

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Re: Unlimited research: radar range

Post by Tekky »

I like the idea.

However, I would like to point out that the higher the radar range, the more of the map will be uncovered, which will increase savegame size and autosave time.

So, your suggestion has both advantages and disadvantages.

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Re: Unlimited research: radar range

Post by Koub »

The more range, the more you'll need to wait for the radar to cycle amongst all the chunks it can scan to refresh.
You need 7h20 to scan the 797 chunks a radar can cover. With 1 extra range, you'll have 120 additional chunks (a bit more than 1h06).
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Re: Unlimited research: radar range

Post by herkalurk »

Koub wrote:The more range, the more you'll need to wait for the radar to cycle amongst all the chunks it can scan to refresh.
You need 7h20 to scan the 797 chunks a radar can cover. With 1 extra range, you'll have 120 additional chunks (a bit more than 1h06).
Could their be 2 types of research then, radar range and radar scan speed? Then you could eliminate that issue if you keep your speed upgrading with range.

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Re: Unlimited research: radar range

Post by QGamer »

Hmmm...I'd prefer for the research to be:
1) Non-infinite so that it doesn't bloat the savegame size with faraway chunks
2) Combine 3 effects: increase radar discover area, increase radar permanent view area, increase scanning speed. This way I wouldn't have to worry about multiple researches: it's all in 1

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Re: Unlimited research: radar range

Post by 4xel »

could be merged with
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=61719

From there :
4xel wrote:Arguably, it already exists in vanilla.

https://youtu.be/pDLIkfSLTmU?t=116

https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comme ... nge_radar/

(the range of artillery is infinitely upgradable)


This mod does pretty much what you describe and a bit more in the same spirit :

https://mods.factorio.com/mods/Afforess/Big_Brother

This one has an other take on the issue which I personnally prefer :

https://mods.factorio.com/mods/catalyst ... lliteRadar

This one is a simplistic addition of a new radar with greater range :

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/Advanced_Radar

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Radar range infinite research

Post by Chao »

TL;DR
An infinite research to increase radar range.
What ?
An infinite research that increases the pulse and survey scan distances of radars.
Why ?
I'm not about everyone else but seeing dark patches on my map for my main cleared area bugs me, so I'll drop a lot of the solar panel, accumulator, radar setups to fill the spaces in. However as you expand further and your main train plus power grid gets more sparse there are more of these gaps to fill (particularly on water heavy maps that force you to route around bodies of water) and the process gets tedious.

By the point you hit endgame there's no real gameplay value in the tight range and we have the artillery range research that improves our expansion ability. Radar range would compliment this nicely.

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Re: Infinite radar range research is a must now.

Post by Koub »

[Koub] Merged topics with same suggestion.
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Re: Unlimited research: radar range

Post by QGamer »

QGamer wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:49 pm
Hmmm...I'd prefer for the research to be:
1) Non-infinite so that it doesn't bloat the savegame size with faraway chunks
2) Combine 3 effects: increase radar discover area, increase radar permanent view area, increase scanning speed. This way I wouldn't have to worry about multiple researches: it's all in 1
Perfect! I want this :D
Also if we could have Modules for Radars? Speed modules would be nice.

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Re: Unlimited research: radar range

Post by Chao »

QGamer wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 12:14 am
QGamer wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:49 pm
Hmmm...I'd prefer for the research to be:
1) Non-infinite so that it doesn't bloat the savegame size with faraway chunks
2) Combine 3 effects: increase radar discover area, increase radar permanent view area, increase scanning speed. This way I wouldn't have to worry about multiple researches: it's all in 1
Perfect! I want this :D
Also if we could have Modules for Radars? Speed modules would be nice.
I'd quite happily take an "Advanced Radar" that has an extended range and module slots as an alternative to infinite research (or even an addition).

I just want to be able to have vision across my whole cleared area without littering the landscape with a million radar solar setups.

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Re: Infinite radar range research is a must now.

Post by eradicator »

ScanningRadar has circuit controlled range. And consumes power according to range.

Also it's important to note that the engine has a hard limit on how many chunks can be without fog of war simultaenously (as far as i know).
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Re: Infinite radar range research is a must now.

Post by Qon »

eradicator wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 7:46 am
Also it's important to note that the engine has a hard limit on how many chunks can be without fog of war simultaenously (as far as i know).
Source please?

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Re: Infinite radar range research is a must now.

Post by mrvn »

Qon wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 10:17 am
eradicator wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 7:46 am
Also it's important to note that the engine has a hard limit on how many chunks can be without fog of war simultaenously (as far as i know).
Source please?
And what would happen when you build too many radars and exceeed that limit?

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Re: Infinite radar range research is a must now.

Post by mrvn »

-1 on the idea to combine the 3 effects of scanning range, scanning speed and always visible range. Increasing the scanning speed won't bloat the map like increased range will so you might want one but not the other.

Research to increase the always visible range also seems kind of pointless. Should I reposition all my radars every time I research the next level? Might make more sense to simply have a fixed number of radar mk X like mods already have.

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Re: Infinite radar range research is a must now.

Post by eradicator »

Qon wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 10:17 am
eradicator wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 7:46 am
Also it's important to note that the engine has a hard limit on how many chunks can be without fog of war simultaenously (as far as i know).
Source please?
I only vaguely remember a thread where someone suggested making sattelites permanently uncover the whole map, and @Rseding91 as far as i remember said, that such a features would cost too much performance.

Also in this video @2:50 you can see that the radar-uncovering of the artillery bullets is delayed because the engine limits how many chunks it uncovers per tick.
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Re: Infinite radar range research is a must now.

Post by Qon »

eradicator wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 10:55 am
I only vaguely remember a thread where someone suggested making sattelites permanently uncover the whole map, and @Rseding91 as far as i remember said, that such a features would cost too much performance.

Also in this video @2:50 you can see that the radar-uncovering of the artillery bullets is delayed because the engine limits how many chunks it uncovers per tick.
That's only because those chunks haven't been generated and charting them requires generation. Once they have been generated you can instantly turn on active updates on it. Place a "Creative Mod super radar 2", wait for generation, remove it, place it again. The whole area activates immediately the second time. And that area is massive, like 100x100 chunks. So that is not the limit of active radar coverage.

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Re: Infinite radar range research is a must now.

Post by eradicator »

Qon wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 11:14 am
That's only because those chunks haven't been generated and charting them requires generation.
That can't be quite true because it would mean that the artillery shells impact into chunks that do not exist at the time of impact. Here's a test command. Open the map, then run the command. (Warning: will freeze the game for a minute or so):

Code: Select all

/c
nauvis = game.surfaces.nauvis
force = game.player.force
nauvis.request_to_generate_chunks({0,0}, 100)
nauvis.force_generate_chunk_requests() --[[will stall the game until all chunks are 100% generated]]
force.chart_all(nauvis)
When you first run this you can clearly see the chart being uncovered (black -> map) one chunk at a time. And the charting only happens *after all chunks have already been generated*. When you run it a second time it will instantly reveal the whole area. Therefor i suppose there are three steps:
1) Generate chunks (expensive)
2) Generate a visual representation of a chunk (expensive)
3) Update the visual representation of a chunk (cheap *if nothing changed since the last update*)

Now let's try something that changes the visual representation:

Code: Select all

/c game.forces.enemy.kill_all_units()
If you run the first command again after this you will see that step 3) is now visibly slower. If you run it again and again and again, you will slowly see the speed increase until all the biters have respawned and the command runs "instantly" again.

Conclusion: The charting hard-limit is not "x chunks per tick" but "x milliseconds per tick", therefor it only visibly slows scans down when chunks change a lot. (And placing a radar doesn't change anything).
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