"Safe mining" - protection from loss of items

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Dev-iL
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"Safe mining" - protection from loss of items

Post by Dev-iL »

This suggestion talks about adding a mechanism to essentially protect players from themselves.

Sometimes we want to get rid of some extra fluids so we just collect them in a tank and then pick it up - so that all contents magically vanish.
Other times, while trying slightly modify the positions of some pipes/rails/belts/inserters, we accidentally point to the wrong target just next to what we wanted, only to realize we ended up destroying a huge amount of valuable resource that took us a while to get (could be some expensive recipe that is being crafted [e.g. space rocket nearing completion], or a fluid tank with some precious lubricant/sulfuric acid).

Thus, my suggestion is to disallow these types of mining actions, unless a user uses some modifier key (e.g. Shift, Ctrl, ...) that would turn it into "forced mining".
The way I see it, this should be a toggle-able setting that is ON by default. This way, experienced players or those used to the old system could just turn it off, while providing some "protection" for new players, or those who tend to make this sort of mistakes.

Should apply to:
1) Mining any sort of manufacturing machine (assembly/refinery/chem/...) that is in the middle of crafting and only requires time to finish.
2) Mining any sort of fluid container that has fluid in it (pipes, wagons, fluid tanks).

Should possibly apply to:
1) Containers whose contents cannot fit in the player's inventory and would result in a bunch of items being thrown to the ground when picked up.
2) Changing recipes while crafting is going on.

Should probably not apply to:
1) Things that burn fuel to work (cars, furnaces, burner drills, ...)

Additional effects:
1) A building marked for deconstruction will not start new recipes. It will finish what it's currently doing and only then will be actually added to the deconstruction queue of bots.
Last edited by Dev-iL on Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Safe mining" - protection from loss of items

Post by olafthecat »

Good idea!
Dev-iL wrote:This suggestion talks about adding a mechanism to essentially protect players from themselves.
Welp... :?
Gonna start playing again with 0.16 build.
That's all.

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Re: "Safe mining" - protection from loss of items

Post by Dev-iL »

Following a bug report related to machines starting recipes even when disconnected from power, this suggestion has even more justification, as it can help save resources that the user didn't even realize could be lost: suppose a user placed a crafting building in a middle of nowhere, set a recipe and put all ingredients in from the outside (using direct stack move) w/o realizing they would be consumed - with "safe mining" they would be notified that resources would be lost when attempting to move the building.
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Re: "Safe mining" - protection from loss of items

Post by BlueTemplar »

Wait, so the "destroy ingredients in progress" feature already existed before 0.16, that's why it was considered a "bugfix" in 0.17.0 ?
Or are you talking about the lost time/energy/pollution ?

Also, related :
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/restrictive_fluid_mining

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Re: "Safe mining" - protection from loss of items

Post by Koub »

BlueTemplar wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:23 am
Wait, so the "destroy ingredients in progress" feature already existed before 0.16, that's why it was considered a "bugfix" in 0.17.0 ?
Or are you talking about the lost time/energy/pollution ?

Also, related :
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/restrictive_fluid_mining
I'd really like to see the "container" part of this mod integrated to vanilla. I, too, have too often destroyed full tanks accidentally. I don't mind losing the contents of a pipe, but 25k fluid can be quite a quantity.
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Re: "Safe mining" - protection from loss of items

Post by BlueTemplar »

Indeed, in fact I specifically changed that mod in this way :
Storage containers can not be mined (like previously) if they contain 10% or more fluid or gasses. Pipes can, unless completely full.
(Note that it's still for 0.16.)

I'm considering removing the pipe restriction completely...
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Re: "Safe mining" - protection from loss of items

Post by darkfrei »

Koub wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:48 am
I'd really like to see the "container" part of this mod integrated to vanilla. I, too, have too often destroyed full tanks accidentally. I don't mind losing the contents of a pipe, but 25k fluid can be quite a quantity.
Some years I have an idea about the mod, where you can save all fluids from deconstructed entities if you have enough empty barrels in inventory. It's easy for pipes, but looks too problematic for fluid tanks.

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Re: "Safe mining" - protection from loss of items

Post by Dev-iL »

BlueTemplar wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:23 am
Wait, so the "destroy ingredients in progress" feature already existed before 0.16, that's why it was considered a "bugfix" in 0.17.0 ?
Or are you talking about the lost time/energy/pollution ?
I believe (though I could be wrong) that even in the latest 0.17.x, when you deconstruct an assembly machine (or similar entity) in the middle of crafting, you don't get the ingredients back. In the bug report I linked, this manifested as losing both types of uranium when deconstructing a centrifuge "in the middle" of enrichment.
BlueTemplar wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:23 am
Also, related :
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/restrictive_fluid_mining
This is indeed related. I haven't considered that fill percentage could be a factor for when construction is disallowed. It's an interesting concept. I wouldn't mind if it's implemented either way :)
Koub wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:48 am
I don't mind losing the contents of a pipe, but 25k fluid can be quite a quantity.
That summarizes my sentiment as well.
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Re: "Safe mining" - protection from loss of items

Post by JCav »

While I understand the desire to not accidentally pick up a storage tank of fluid, I think it would be abhorrent to literally deny the player the ability to do so until they managed to disperse the fluids.

I can't see how "in order to prevent you making a mistake, I've taken away the ability for you to pick up something you built" is a good idea for vanilla.

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Re: "Safe mining" - protection from loss of items

Post by BlueTemplar »

Yes, something like a confirmation dialog (?) seems more reasonable, for tanks only ?

----
Dev-iL wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:02 am
BlueTemplar wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:23 am
Wait, so the "destroy ingredients in progress" feature already existed before 0.16, that's why it was considered a "bugfix" in 0.17.0 ?
Or are you talking about the lost time/energy/pollution ?
I believe (though I could be wrong) that even in the latest 0.17.x, when you deconstruct an assembly machine (or similar entity) in the middle of crafting, you don't get the ingredients back. In the bug report I linked, this manifested as losing both types of uranium when deconstructing a centrifuge "in the middle" of enrichment.
Yes, as I said, this was "fixed" for 0.17.0 :
FactorioBot wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:13 pm
Bugfixes
  • Fixed that canceling production in assembling machine did return the products in progress.
However your OP is from 2017...

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Re: "Safe mining" - protection from loss of items

Post by Dev-iL »

JCav wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:15 am
I can't see how "in order to prevent you making a mistake, I've taken away the ability for you to pick up something you built" is a good idea for vanilla.
I see your point, and yet the scenario you're describing has an important difference from my suggestion - here's what I wrote in the OP:
Dev-iL wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:31 pm
The way I see it, this should be a toggle-able setting that is ON by default. This way, experienced players or those used to the old system could just turn it off, while providing some "protection" for new players, or those who tend to make this sort of mistakes.
i.e. nobody is taking the ability away (at least not irreversibly). This serves to reduce a great deal of frustration for some players, while not affecting the rest (unless you consider "forcing" them to change a setting a major inconvenience).
BlueTemplar wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:18 am
FactorioBot wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:13 pm
Bugfixes
  • Fixed that canceling production in assembling machine did return the products in progress.
However your OP is from 2017...
So the "fix" is that ingredients are not supposed to be returned? Just tested it now on 0.17.60 on a centrifuge and an assembling machine, and the ingredients get lost if the building is picked-up mid-crafting. I don't expect to get the ingredients back, but at the very least I would like a warning of some sort that I'm about to perform a destructive action.
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Re: "Safe mining" - protection from loss of items

Post by FuryoftheStars »

Dev-iL wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:33 am
So the "fix" is that ingredients are not supposed to be returned? Just tested it now on 0.17.60 on a centrifuge and an assembling machine, and the ingredients get lost if the building is picked-up mid-crafting. I don't expect to get the ingredients back, but at the very least I would like a warning of some sort that I'm about to perform a destructive action.
Yeah, though not everyone agreed with that.

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/Dont_lose ... ngredients

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Re: "Safe mining" - protection from loss of items

Post by tehfreek »

BlueTemplar wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:18 am
Yes, something like a confirmation dialog (?) seems more reasonable, for tanks only ?
Just require it to be marked for deconstruction first, since the deconstruction planner is both free and an indication of intent.

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Re: "Safe mining" - protection from loss of items

Post by BlueTemplar »

New players won't have the deconstruction planner unlocked yet when they first reach tanks...

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