[0.15.37] Broken blueprints making game worse

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factoriouzr
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[0.15.37] Broken blueprints making game worse

Post by factoriouzr »

In one of the more recent patches, you changed the behaviour of blueprints so that filters don't get set on inserters anymore if the filtered item isn't researched. The same is true for requester chest requests.

It used to be that when placing a blueprint, regardless if the item is researched or not, it will be set on inserters if it was set on the inserter in the blueprint and requests would be set on requester chests.

THESE CHANGES ARE IN COMPLETE OPPOSITION TO IMPROVING THE GAMEPLAY AND MAKE THE GAMEPLAY WORSE. THIS MAKES BLUEPRINTS A LOT LESS USEFUL.

I have posted a suggestions/bug report a long time ago to allow factories to set their item when placing blueprints, even if the item is not yet researched. A lot of the community also replied and said they wanted this change, yet factorio staff refused to implement this change. Now It seems that you have made this problem even worse by not allowing it on inserters or requester chests either.

Not allowing this results in:
-blueprints being a lot less useful when shared between games
-results in a lot of repeated and tedious tasks being done over and over across the many games people play
-limits player freedom
-confusing situations where the user places the blueprint that have some things set up properly like requester chest request (if they happen to be researched) but the inserter filter not being set. This leads the player to believe the blueprint worked, only to find out potentially hours later that in fact, Factorio decided to skip a few key steps when placing the blueprint.

Honestly, why are you preventing this type of blueprint use. Let the player play how they want. In the worst case, the player blueprints their entire factory. Why is that so bad? If they want to do that, they should be able to. Besides, it would take way longer to play that way in vanilla because you don't have control over what gets built when unless you manually place everything. Again all these ways of playing are perfectly valid. Don't forget, you could just get a mod that does automated base building, and you allow mods.

This kind of limitation is artificial, limits the gameplay possibilities, works in contrast to two already implemented features (blueprints, and blueprint sharing) and makes the game a lot less fun.

Please allow everything to be set when placing blueprints.

Thank you

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Re: [0.15.37] Broken blueprints making game worse

Post by Rseding91 »

factoriouzr wrote:In one of the more recent patches, you changed the behaviour of blueprints so that filters don't get set on inserters anymore if the filtered item isn't researched. The same is true for requester chest requests.
Thanks for the report but... no we didn't.
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Re: [0.15.37] Broken blueprints making game worse

Post by Klonan »

We are looking to look over once more the way players use blueprints and interact with them in the game,
We have already made some small changes we hope will improve things for 0.16

However this is not a bug, so I will move to Ideas and Suggestions

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Re: [0.15.37] Broken blueprints making game worse

Post by factoriouzr »

Thanks for the reply.

That didn't break in in one of the patches? Good to know. I wonder why it's not working now though. I have never seen this problem before. Is there something that is different in how blueprints and recipes are handled or indexed? Perhaps that caused an issue when a mod was updated? Even though this is for vanilla entities as well that I saw these problems.

Can you please implement my suggestion of setting the factories and everything from the blueprints even if the items aren't researched? Ie. set recipes not yet researched on factories.

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Re: [0.15.37] Broken blueprints making game worse

Post by factoriouzr »

Any update on implementing setting recipes on factories even if not researched in 0.17? Obviously the factories wouldn't actually make the recipe, but it would have the recipe set for the when the research is done, it will start producing it.

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Re: [0.15.37] Broken blueprints making game worse

Post by Rseding91 »

factoriouzr wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:04 pm
Any update on implementing setting recipes on factories even if not researched in 0.17? Obviously the factories wouldn't actually make the recipe, but it would have the recipe set for the when the research is done, it will start producing it.
No. Setting a recipe in a machine is the same as crafting the recipe. Assembling machines don't have any concept of "is it researched yet" and we aren't going to add more expensive checks in for this case.
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Re: [0.15.37] Broken blueprints making game worse

Post by Aeternus »

Besides - if you paste a blueprint with recipes over unconfigured assemblers, you can multi-set recipes. If you want to have your infrastructure for red chips in place for instance before red chips research is done, you can put down the blueprints and place the buildings, then once research is done, paste the same blueprint overtop the buildings and they'll adopt the required recipe.

Non issue as far as I'm concerned.

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Re: [0.15.37] Broken blueprints making game worse

Post by bobingabout »

factoriouzr wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:33 pm
In one of the more recent patches, you changed the behaviour of blueprints so that filters don't get set on inserters anymore if the filtered item isn't researched.
if you're using bob's logistics with the inserter update turned on, this could be the issue.
My script changes the type of inserter in the blueprint. The issue is that to change from inserter A to inserter B, you can't just migrate the ghost, so I have to delete inserter A and create inserter B in it's place. which looses some of the settings.
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Re: [0.15.37] Broken blueprints making game worse

Post by factoriouzr »

bobingabout wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:56 am
factoriouzr wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:33 pm
In one of the more recent patches, you changed the behaviour of blueprints so that filters don't get set on inserters anymore if the filtered item isn't researched.
if you're using bob's logistics with the inserter update turned on, this could be the issue.
My script changes the type of inserter in the blueprint. The issue is that to change from inserter A to inserter B, you can't just migrate the ghost, so I have to delete inserter A and create inserter B in it's place. which looses some of the settings.
Thanks for the tip. I'll keep it in mind.

I know this is not the place, but I want to make a really important suggestion for you. First of all, your mod is great and the effort you put into it is appreciated. However, it's very frustrating that you have in the past invalidated vanilla blueprints by changing behaviours on entities, recipes etc. For eg. the number of items allowed in assembly machines, vanilla recipes etc. I know the assembly machine item limit will go away in 0.17, but I ask that you don't modify anything in the vanilla game and just add more machines, recipes, etc. You can have alternate recipes, or ways to do things, but it's annoying to have to have duplicate blueprints for vanilla stuff for your mod and the base game. Then when you change something in your mod, we have to update our blueprints.

I don't have an issue with you changing things from version to version that requires changes to only new items/recipes you added in your mod, but please don't touch any of the vanilla buildings, items, recipes etc. I think this would provide a much better and smoother player experience without sacrificing any of the features of your mod. Just add them in addition to the base game instead of changing the base game items etc. Also note that I don't play with your electronics conversion mod and similar.

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Re: [0.15.37] Broken blueprints making game worse

Post by bobingabout »

factoriouzr wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:12 pm
I know this is not the place, but I want to make a really important suggestion for you. First of all, your mod is great and the effort you put into it is appreciated. However, it's very frustrating that you have in the past invalidated vanilla blueprints by changing behaviours on entities, recipes etc. For eg. the number of items allowed in assembly machines, vanilla recipes etc.
I don't understand what you're saying. the assembling machine accepts max 2, the AS2 accepts 4, and the AS3 accepts 6(used to be 4, and during this time I upped it to 6), I don't change this(though the limit for AS3's 6 is still set in my code, because I can't remember exactly where in my code it is set, and it wasn't important to remove as it's setting it to the same value).

As a general rule, I don't play with vanilla entities, unless it's part of balancing a larger picture. (my power mod reduces temperature of turbine and heat exchanger steam to 485? degrees, change recipe of AS3, battery, etc.)
I prefer to work around the values of the base mod instead, which is one reason why the FFF #266 was such a headache. Fuel value changes might seem like a minor change to most, but there was a lot of calculations throughout my entire mod based on some of these values that were originally amazingly real world equivalent, meaning that certain parts of my mod will be unbalanced and require a complete recalculation. The value of oils for example, and how much you use to make a fuel block in old fluid quantities meant that, if you were to make a fuel block from that much oil in the real world, that's about how much energy it would actually contain. new fluid values multiply everything by 10, so, an analogue to values of fuel in real life put 1 game fluid unit to be 100g of it's RL equivalent, you can then assign fuel values to fluids based on this number. going through my production chain then allows you to calculate how much of my fluids end up in a rocket fuel pack.
Since the value of the fuel block is changing, that means all my calculations are off, and since the value of the rocket fuel didn't change proportionately to the value of the fuel block, that means I can't just adjust fuel values, at the minimum I'll need to either change fuel block/rocket fuel's fuel value, or change the recipe. The easier solution is to just flat out undo the fuel value changes to these fuels. Halving the value of all my other fluids is another option, but depending on what other compensation changes I make (boiler changed from 50% efficiency to 100%, do I undo that, or change efficiency of other things?) will change how broken things end up.

So yeah, part of what makes things hard, is that I don't want to change things in the base mod unless I can help it. That's not what Bob's mods is about, it builds on the foundation of base, and rarely changes it. (Bob revamp contains most of the rewrite stuff. It is it's own mod because some people might not want to use some of the base game changes)

Anyway, as for my logistics mod breaking inserter blueprints... that was my best solution at the time to a change that... honestly, I released a WIP to get some feedback, and it ended up breaking so many things I literally ended up crying as a result. I was under a lot of stress from other things at the time though, like possibly losing my job, and I was feeling kind of worthless at the time, the negative feedback was just another stone thrown at me while I was already down. If anything, it just gave me the determination to fix the issue I caused and rewrite my mod.


I think part of the problem, even though it might not seem like it, is that I care too much, so these things really get to me.
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Re: [0.15.37] Broken blueprints making game worse

Post by factoriouzr »

bobingabout wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:18 am
factoriouzr wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:12 pm
I know this is not the place, but I want to make a really important suggestion for you. First of all, your mod is great and the effort you put into it is appreciated. However, it's very frustrating that you have in the past invalidated vanilla blueprints by changing behaviours on entities, recipes etc. For eg. the number of items allowed in assembly machines, vanilla recipes etc.
I don't understand what you're saying. the assembling machine accepts max 2, the AS2 accepts 4, and the AS3 accepts 6(used to be 4, and during this time I upped it to 6), I don't change this(though the limit for AS3's 6 is still set in my code, because I can't remember exactly where in my code it is set, and it wasn't important to remove as it's setting it to the same value).

As a general rule, I don't play with vanilla entities, unless it's part of balancing a larger picture. (my power mod reduces temperature of turbine and heat exchanger steam to 485? degrees, change recipe of AS3, battery, etc.)
I prefer to work around the values of the base mod instead, which is one reason why the FFF #266 was such a headache. Fuel value changes might seem like a minor change to most, but there was a lot of calculations throughout my entire mod based on some of these values that were originally amazingly real world equivalent, meaning that certain parts of my mod will be unbalanced and require a complete recalculation. The value of oils for example, and how much you use to make a fuel block in old fluid quantities meant that, if you were to make a fuel block from that much oil in the real world, that's about how much energy it would actually contain. new fluid values multiply everything by 10, so, an analogue to values of fuel in real life put 1 game fluid unit to be 100g of it's RL equivalent, you can then assign fuel values to fluids based on this number. going through my production chain then allows you to calculate how much of my fluids end up in a rocket fuel pack.
Since the value of the fuel block is changing, that means all my calculations are off, and since the value of the rocket fuel didn't change proportionately to the value of the fuel block, that means I can't just adjust fuel values, at the minimum I'll need to either change fuel block/rocket fuel's fuel value, or change the recipe. The easier solution is to just flat out undo the fuel value changes to these fuels. Halving the value of all my other fluids is another option, but depending on what other compensation changes I make (boiler changed from 50% efficiency to 100%, do I undo that, or change efficiency of other things?) will change how broken things end up.

So yeah, part of what makes things hard, is that I don't want to change things in the base mod unless I can help it. That's not what Bob's mods is about, it builds on the foundation of base, and rarely changes it. (Bob revamp contains most of the rewrite stuff. It is it's own mod because some people might not want to use some of the base game changes)

Anyway, as for my logistics mod breaking inserter blueprints... that was my best solution at the time to a change that... honestly, I released a WIP to get some feedback, and it ended up breaking so many things I literally ended up crying as a result. I was under a lot of stress from other things at the time though, like possibly losing my job, and I was feeling kind of worthless at the time, the negative feedback was just another stone thrown at me while I was already down. If anything, it just gave me the determination to fix the issue I caused and rewrite my mod.


I think part of the problem, even though it might not seem like it, is that I care too much, so these things really get to me.
As I said in my post, your mod is great and appreciated. I have no doubt it takes work to maintain and update it. All I'm saying is that it would be great if you (as a rule, instead of a guideline) didn't modify anything in vanilla and instead just added to it.

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Re: [0.15.37] Broken blueprints making game worse

Post by bobingabout »

factoriouzr wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:11 pm
As I said in my post, your mod is great and appreciated. I have no doubt it takes work to maintain and update it. All I'm saying is that it would be great if you (as a rule, instead of a guideline) didn't modify anything in vanilla and instead just added to it.
Fair enough.

I did kind of go on a bit of a rant there.
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Re: [0.15.37] Broken blueprints making game worse

Post by factoriouzr »

bobingabout wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:21 am
factoriouzr wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:11 pm
As I said in my post, your mod is great and appreciated. I have no doubt it takes work to maintain and update it. All I'm saying is that it would be great if you (as a rule, instead of a guideline) didn't modify anything in vanilla and instead just added to it.
Fair enough.

I did kind of go on a bit of a rant there.
No problem. Hope you are doing well now.

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