Research overwhole

[chridder]

TL;DR

Change the research in factorio, that it depends on throughput and time and not on number of research items.

What ?

Basically, that there is not necessarily a motivation to optimize the own factory an to increase production after initial setup is done. Even with 1 assembly machine for each science pack, earlier or later I can get all research done.
While I try to increase production outcome in a train world / high cost setup I research in parallel things. As it takes long time to build a mega factory, as soon as it is done, many researches are already completed... so all the effort to get to the mega factory was done basically for last few research topics. So I ask myself if it is worth the effort.

WHAT do you suggest?
To change this, a new approach could be implemented.
Research items running into a research building directly via a belt w/o insertes.
The research building consumes the research packs, but brings only progress in current research, if a minimum throughput of all science packs is provided over at least (for example) 5 seconds. If my factory is able, to provide such a throughput, I make progress in the research, otherwise the research items are lost or converted into something else (e.g. pollution cleaning).
Also, if I started no research, items are consumed but converted.
For sure, in the early game you can "hack" it by not connecting a long provider belt to the research building and only connect it, when you want to research something. But this would only work for low level research easily, later on, it would be a nightmare to do so, as you need to deconnect/connect hundred of times.
To supply a research building with all necessary sciene packs, the building might need to get bigger to allow multiple belts running in OR each research building focusses on 1 science pack, but need to be in range of another research building handling the other relevant science packs, to start research. So, only of all relevant research buildings are getting the thorughput for their science pack, the research runs.

For example:
1st level automization (to get 1st assembling machine) --> need 10 seconds with a throughput of 1 red science pack / second
Nuclear bomb --> need 600 seconds with a throughput of 36 science packs / second and science pack color (assuming blue belts have a throughput of 40 items/second

So for nuclear bomb you need at least 6 research buildings (1 for each color).

Alternative approach here could be, that you have different research buildings (tier 1 .. n), where late buildings allow multiple belts running in. With that, the necessary throughput for a research could be even higher than 40 items per second.

Why ?

WHY do you think it increases the value of Factorio as a game?
From my point of view, this could increase
a) the challenge in the game
b) the long time motivation to optimize the factory
c) the motivation to build larger factories
d) would allow the devs to better control the progress a player makes in the game, so that the player can only research new items after he really made use of the already researched things. For example, it would be impossible to research nuclear bomb without using blue belts as yellow and red belts can never provide enough throughput.

[Qon]

TL;DR

Change the research in factorio, that it depends on throughput and time and not on number of research items.

No.

All you have to do then is buffer your packs to get any throughput you want. The ideas are just broken in so many ways that it's just a waste of time to list them all and your idea has no benefits.

Infinite research provides a use for a big mega factory if you need one. Building mega factories is fun even if there's no value, imo. There's no need to force players who don't want to build big to do so anyways. Let people who want a small and slow factory play as they like.

Also, overhaul is not spelled overwhole.

[Factory Lobster]

The ideas are just broken in so many ways that it's just a waste of time to list them all and your idea has no benefits.

Reminded me of this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtNHuqHWefU

[chridder]

TL;DR

Change the research in factorio, that it depends on throughput and time and not on number of research items.

No.

All you have to do then is buffer your packs to get any throughput you want. The ideas are just broken in so many ways that it's just a waste of time to list them all and your idea has no benefits.

Infinite research provides a use for a big mega factory if you need one. Building mega factories is fun even if there's no value, imo. There's no need to force players who don't want to build big to do so anyways. Let people who want a small and slow factory play as they like.

Also, overhaul is not spelled overwhole.

Sorry for the mistakes in writing, I am not a native speaker.
For sure you can buffer the science packs and get the throughput (the one your belt allows you to have). But also in current game design there are often multiple ways for several things...or mods.

Nevertheless, I agree that it is a radical idea and maybe not thought through in many aspects.
AND I agree that it makes the game more difficult for players who don't want to build big.

Anyway, thanks for your feedback. I mean, that's the reason for that forum right, sharing ideas and discussing them.... and if there is something interesting, going a step deeper into discussion or brainstorm about the good parts in an idea.

But it still would be interesting in which other ways the ideas are broken...

[Ripshaft]

Well I think Qon has quite astutely pointed out a flaw in the idea, though to be a bit more verbose -

I like your idea of rewarding certain throughput goals, though I don't think research progression is the place to try and stick that kind of idea... while it may appeal to you, there's many players who are using something like research as a measure of progression and placing additional barriers that are not so well defined upon the player is generally not good for player satisfaction... especially newer players. I am all on board with rewarding certain throughput goals, but I'm thinking something more along the lines of decorative trophy statues/tiles than any part of the core gameplay and progression.

[chridder]

Well I think Qon has quite astutely pointed out a flaw in the idea, though to be a bit more verbose -

I like your idea of rewarding certain throughput goals, though I don't think research progression is the place to try and stick that kind of idea... while it may appeal to you, there's many players who are using something like research as a measure of progression and placing additional barriers that are not so well defined upon the player is generally not good for player satisfaction... especially newer players. I am all on board with rewarding certain throughput goals, but I'm thinking something more along the lines of decorative trophy statues/tiles than any part of the core gameplay and progression.

so, basically I think it should not be a bigger problem to introduce some new achievements based on throughput.

[bobingabout]

Research lost because you're not providing packs fast enough? definitely not.

Consider some of these infinite researches. Even an early one, you need 3000 of all 7 (8 in my mod) science packs. That's hard enough work as it is.
Also, all 8 kinds of packs in 5 seconds using belts, and not being able to use inserters? yeah, no. You'd need at least 4 belts per lab, compressed, and sorted so one of each type of pack makes it into the lab per cycle. That's pretty hard to do without taking into account that some belts might be empty.

The game is about automation, what if you were lacking just one pack? You could be shovelling research items into oblivion, and not even know it, because AUTOMATION!!!
At least as it is now, the lab will fill with those 7 and wait for the 8th to get there before doing anything.

The idea is broken... it's not going to work, enough said.

[chridder]

Research lost because you're not providing packs fast enough? definitely not.

I assumed, research is paused in that moment, but nevertheless, with limited resources it might not work.

Consider some of these infinite researches. Even an early one, you need 3000 of all 7 (8 in my mod) science packs. That's hard enough work as it is.
Also, all 8 kinds of packs in 5 seconds using belts, and not being able to use inserters? yeah, no. You'd need at least 4 belts per lab, compressed, and sorted so one of each type of pack makes it into the lab per cycle. That's pretty hard to do without taking into account that some belts might be empty.

Good point. Deliver all kind of packs in a continuous flow at the same time might be to difficult.
by the way: Aren't it just 6 kinds of packs?

The game is about automation, what if you were lacking just one pack? You could be shovelling research items into oblivion, and not even know it, because AUTOMATION!!!
At least as it is now, the lab will fill with those 7 and wait for the 8th to get there before doing anything.

I think this is the best point against it: In a big factory it might get impossible to monitor the throughput at the labs and optimize your factory at the same time to get the required throughput.

The idea is broken... it's not going to work, enough said.

Thanks for bringing up the flaws in the idea.

I recognized in my games, that I do research independent (more or less) of my progress in building the factory. While the factory grows slower than the research progresses i have tons of techs already available while I am still at the basics of the factory. As research starts with even 1 assembler for each pack (in current factory I have 2 per pack) as long as they produce packs, research goes on and on. Maybe I am a (too) slow player, maybe that is the point.
But I feel research and factory growth are somehow decoupled. And when I stop researching anything new, all my belts are running full of material (earlier or later) and I don't see anymore, which production line is my bottleneck. That was basically the point I was coming from when I was thinking about coupling the research with my throughput. When I do my research I get so far ahead in tech, which I am not even able to use at that time. If I stop research, my belts running full and I don't see what to optimize, where to extend the factory, and so on. Keeping the machines running all the time, gives me a better feeling of what need to be done next.

What I have overseen is the infinite research, which goes much into the direction of what I am looking for, but this comes quite late in the game.
First times I played through the game, I stopped after starting the rocket as this was originally the end goal of the game as far as I understood. I think this changed now in later versions. Last factory I stopped playing as it was boring (wrong world setup without biters and too much resources). Now I play a railword / expensive research / expensive receipts. let's see how this works out at the end.