Inserters between labs shouldnt transfer depleted packs

[blueblue]

As the game is in 0.15.27, if you chain labs with inserters and set the stack size to 1, the inserters will transfer the science pack with whatever depletion is left of it. This leads to only the last lab in the chain actually depleting any science packs, the others usually transfer their pack to the next before it is used up fully. In my setup, if any inserter transfers a science pack, it is because the final lab used up a science pack, so all inserters are active. On the other hand if I leave the stack size at the usual number, it slows research because inserters might steal all the packs from a lab.

I know this is a minor issue, not sure if it's a suggestion or a bug report but I think it should be fixed if the performance doesnt suffer from it because it is silly. My suggestion is to change it so that if available, an inserter takes one whole "unit" of the science pack instead of the depleted pack.

For reference science setup link. The setup has indicator lights to show which inserters are active.

Edit: video

[posila]

For the record, research progresses continuously as science pack is consumed, so two labs consuming half of a science pack each should result in same research progress as one lab consuming whole science pack.

[blueblue]

Yes I didnt make myself very clear. My issue is that a lot of the time my inserters are busy transferring science packs that only have 5% left in them or less. My setup converges to a state where the last lab will take a low % science pack from the one before that, use up that one, get another low % pack and so on, one low pack for each lab, only after that it gets a nearly full pack. Then after that is used up the same thing starts again. Instead I think the inserters should transfer full packs if possible.

[Factory Lobster]

I think the inserters should transfer full packs if possible.

Wouldn't the effect of this be less research done? Imagine wasted research time as full packs are handed all the way to the back of the line while no research is being done for the entire time the inserters are doing their thing.

I realized after I posted the above that you probably mean transferring EXTRA full packs only, but I think the effect would still be lost research time in that case.

[Rseding91]

Yes I didnt make myself very clear. My issue is that a lot of the time my inserters are busy transferring science packs that only have 5% left in them or less. ...

Inserters being able to transfer packs between labs was never meant as the end-all best way to setup science. It having downsides is actually quite nice - it's easier to use lab -> lab -> lab but not the *best* way.

[Deadly-Bagel]

I'm trying to run through the logic in my head but can't see it doing any less science either way.

In both scenarios packs are being simultaneously transferred down the chain of labs, and each lab constantly has at least one pack in it so is able to perform science. Regardless of what you move there will be semi-depleted packs somewhere.

The biggest difference I can see is that moving part-consumed packs results in energy waste. Say the last lab in the chain only receives packs at 50%, it will be requesting packs twice as often resulting in its Inserter moving twice as often. This compounds with the labs up the chain.

There is also that Inserters needing to move more packs results in bottlenecking sooner, in which case it would be prudent to increase the stack size. In the above example, increasing stack size to 2 will triple the efficiency of the last lab - this is because with stack size of 1 it only gets 0.5 of a pack, with a stack of 2 it gets 1.5 packs = 3x throughput.

So basically the solution is to have stack size of 2, when you get to that research. Until then it is the cost of saving iron on belts =P

[mrvn]

I think the inserters should transfer full packs if possible.

Wouldn't the effect of this be less research done? Imagine wasted research time as full packs are handed all the way to the back of the line while no research is being done for the entire time the inserters are doing their thing.

I realized after I posted the above that you probably mean transferring EXTRA full packs only, but I think the effect would still be lost research time in that case.

No, or not significantly. As the last lab runs out all the inserters activate in parallel. So a new bulb doesn't get passed down the chain. Instead one bulb from each lab gets passed one done the line. All labs should have a second bulb and continue researching on that. What you think arises when multiple labs finish a bulb near the same time. Then the first lab has finished one bulb and gets one taken by the inserter and is left with 0.

I think it makes sense that items are stacked in a building and inserters add to the top or take from the top while the building consumes from the bottom. So when multiple bulbs are in a science lab (or coal in a boiler) then inserters take the full one from the top. If it is the last one they would take a half used one.

[Deadly-Bagel]

Overall this would be an inconsequential change as I explained. You're better off with a higher stack size or using two Inserters between each lab.

[mrvn]

Overall this would be an inconsequential change as I explained. You're better off with a higher stack size or using two Inserters between each lab.

Both of those would make it worse. Much worse I think. With a higher stack size or multiple inserters all the bulbs will be taken from the lab. So every time a inserter activates the source lab will stop research for the time the inserter takes to move. Then that lab needs to get new bulbs so it robs the previous lab of all bulbs and so on. So when the last lab runs out of bulbs all labs stop research.

Granted, the lab would run out of bulbs less frequent but every time it would stop that lab and all previous ones.

[Ripshaft]

That is a strange setup you're using.. series instead of parallel.

But I think I may be missing the point... either you have enough packs coming to saturate the demand or you don't - if you do then none of that matters, and if you don't then why not just reduce the number of labs until it is, if the depleted one is really what concerns you? I mean if I'm understanding what you're saying, the problem of the last lab being the only one to finish the job is something that would only happen if you were only making enough research for one lab to handle.

In which case up the research output or reduce the number of labs. This is assuming you have a reason to use a series setup and not a parallel setup which would completely remove the possibility of including depleted flasks.

Will check out your setup later for clarification but right now bit of a head scratcher lol, and you've made me want to experiment with series setups =p

[blueblue]

@Ripshaft A lot of these setups were on the factorio subreddit a while ago. You can get a very compact science setup by combining the traditional parallel approach with series, for example make rows with five labs each and add rows as you need them.

You're also indeed missing the point of this. Here's a video of the thing in action. You will see that all the inserters are active simultaneously, which runs against what I expected from a setup like this - and before the update that made science pack depletion continuous this was different indeed. It takes some minutes to reach this state but it gets there every time invariably. It took me some time to figure out why this happens, I described it in the top post.

[Ripshaft]

@Ripshaft A lot of these setups were on the factorio subreddit a while ago. You can get a very compact science setup by combining the traditional parallel approach with series, for example make rows with five labs each and add rows as you need them.

You're also indeed missing the point of this. Here's a video of the thing in action. You will see that all the inserters are active simultaneously, which runs against what I expected from a setup like this - and before the update that made science pack depletion continuous this was different indeed. It takes some minutes to reach this state but it gets there every time invariably. It took me some time to figure out why this happens, I described it in the top post.

ahhhh i see (somewhat =p) thanks that clarifies things alot - though I'm still unclear on the precise aspect of the problem... though I do have a guess... are you using speed modules or otherwise researching faster than the arms can resupply? because it would be a constant stream under those circumstances... if that's what you're identifying as the problem. Prior to the equal usage it's likely that you had less to resupply or were bottlenecking and it wasn't so apparent.

Though that's just going out on a limb, would need to see the contents of the labs in realtime to see if that's what's happening.

[Deadly-Bagel]

Both of those would make it worse. Much worse I think.

Hmm thought they stacked to 5 in the labs for some reason.

But then you're just not trying hard enough =P use Filter Inserters and limit one to 3 pack types and the other to 4. Pretty sure Military and Production science are mutually exclusive so both of those can be on the same Inserter with two others, would otherwise stagger the types between the Inserters. I would go (SP1 / SP3 / HTSP) and (SP2 / MSP / PSP / SSP). The load of high level science is therefore distributed without depleting the labs. This doesn't do much for the efficiency of the Inserters themselves but they should be able to keep up with more labs.

[mrvn]

Both of those would make it worse. Much worse I think.

Hmm thought they stacked to 5 in the labs for some reason.

But then you're just not trying hard enough =P use Filter Inserters and limit one to 3 pack types and the other to 4. Pretty sure Military and Production science are mutually exclusive so both of those can be on the same Inserter with two others, would otherwise stagger the types between the Inserters. I would go (SP1 / SP3 / HTSP) and (SP2 / MSP / PSP / SSP). The load of high level science is therefore distributed without depleting the labs. This doesn't do much for the efficiency of the Inserters themselves but they should be able to keep up with more labs.

Oh, I did that and even more. I make a 5x5 field of labs and bought in 2 flasks from each side. And then 4 filter inserters for each lab moving the respective science flask in the right direction. Looks real nice and efficient but before blueprints it's a pain to set up.