liquid filtering for pumps, tanks and wagons

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liquid filtering for pumps, tanks and wagons

Post by mrvn » Mon May 08, 2017 11:22 am

It would be nice if one could set pumps to only pump a specific liquid. It really sucks when your water wagon stops at the oil refinery at the wrong place and the water gets pumped into the crude oil pipes or something. Similar it would be nice if tanks and wagons could be set to only accept a specific liquid.

Note: Extra gold stars for the developers if the filter can be set via circuit networks.

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Re: liquid filtering for pumps, tanks and wagons

Post by bobingabout » Mon May 08, 2017 2:17 pm

I have to agree with this.

In my big game that I've been playing since version 0.10, I have stations all over the place pumping oil, water and Lithia water(I am Bob of Bob's mods, remember). Currently it all goes in barrels and gets shipped back to the main base that way, and they all unload via the same station.

I was considering replacing the train to use fluid wagons instead, but, then you run into the issues as mentioned here. It would be nice if you could filter the fluids again some how.
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Re: liquid filtering for pumps, tanks and wagons

Post by Selvek » Mon May 08, 2017 3:55 pm

Is there a problem with using the read train contents feature to enable a certain subset of pumps offloading from the train? (I haven't tried this but it seems like the obvious solution, so maybe you have already discovered an issue with it?)

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Re: liquid filtering for pumps, tanks and wagons

Post by mrvn » Tue May 09, 2017 8:15 am

Good idea. But how would that work with fluid wagons that are split? How do you know which of the three pumps to activate?

Or wagons supposed to contain one fluid but that are empty at the moment? How do you stop filling them with the wrong thing?

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Re: liquid filtering for pumps, tanks and wagons

Post by ssilk » Tue May 09, 2017 8:45 am

Yes, this is really a problem, you can fuckup the whole production cycle, if a train comes in, that has a "rest" of the former transport in one of the wagons.
It's especially a problem with the logistic-train-mod (or similar mods).

But on the other hand it's not possible to read the contents with the train-stop. That might solve this kind of problem. I can say for me, this needs further observation, if this is really a game fuckup or just another puzzle. :)
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Re: liquid filtering for pumps, tanks and wagons

Post by bobingabout » Tue May 09, 2017 9:44 am

I have an idea for a solution... an IDEA, untested.

You might not be able to accurately read what is in a wagon, but you CAN read what is in a storage tank!!!

Talking about emptying from a train, here's what you do. Use a logic latch (Will need to look up how to build one in factorio) that will have a tank set either as filling, or emptying. Toggling between the tanks states is as follows. If the tank is empty when the train pulls up, it gets set to filling mode, a pump then fills the tank from the train. The tank will remain in filling mode until the train leaves, at which point it will switch to emptying mode, and remain in this mode until the tank is empty. This "mode" basically toggles if the pump filling the tank from the train is turned on, or if the one emptying the tank into your system is turned on, one or the other.

In the case of the latter, you can check to see which fluid is in the tank, and feed that information to a set of pumps on the output of the tank (After the emptying pump) and turn on whichever one corresponds to the fluid in the tank.

I suppose the main issue with that is if the pump fills with a fluid, and then it stays in the pump when all the inputs are drained, you're left with the pump full of a wrong fluid. that would need testing (But I'm sure the issue could be fixed with modding by changing the pump's input to input-output type)
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Re: liquid filtering for pumps, tanks and wagons

Post by AndrewIRL » Tue May 09, 2017 9:59 am

Just use barrels?
  • Can be filtered
  • More fluid per cargo wagon (100K vs 75K)
  • Single cargo wagon can carry any mixed load of fluid barrels you want
  • Better throughput on yellow belts vs pipes (200K LpM vs 72K LpM)
  • Can be upgraded to red or blue if needed (vs pipes with no upgrade path)
  • Can be carried by bots
  • Can do belt sushi or 50-50 with other items or fluids. Petroleum, Sulfuric, Lubricant, coal and red science on one (admittedly weird) belt - sure.
  • No pipes blocking you from running around
  • Single train type, all cargo - any train can be dispatched from depot to handle any load, no special liquid trains.
The only cons are - requires steel for barrels, empties need to be sent back and assemblers for fill/empty.

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Re: liquid filtering for pumps, tanks and wagons

Post by bobingabout » Tue May 09, 2017 10:03 am

I mean, yeah, you could do that, but then what's the point in having a fluid wagon?
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Re: liquid filtering for pumps, tanks and wagons

Post by AndrewIRL » Tue May 09, 2017 10:12 am

bobingabout wrote:I mean, yeah, you could do that, but then what's the point in having a fluid wagon?
They are pretty and have a cool fill animation?

Barrels need to be nerfed to bring them down to the fluid wagon and pipe level as suggested here: Barrels hold too much liquid. but you already know about that because you are also active in that thread!

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Re: liquid filtering for pumps, tanks and wagons

Post by mrvn » Tue May 09, 2017 12:09 pm

AndrewIRL wrote:Just use barrels?
  • Can be filtered
  • More fluid per cargo wagon (100K vs 75K)
  • Single cargo wagon can carry any mixed load of fluid barrels you want
  • Better throughput on yellow belts vs pipes (200K LpM vs 72K LpM)
  • Can be upgraded to red or blue if needed (vs pipes with no upgrade path)
  • Can be carried by bots
  • Can do belt sushi or 50-50 with other items or fluids. Petroleum, Sulfuric, Lubricant, coal and red science on one (admittedly weird) belt - sure.
  • No pipes blocking you from running around
  • Single train type, all cargo - any train can be dispatched from depot to handle any load, no special liquid trains.
The only cons are - requires steel for barrels, empties need to be sent back and assemblers for fill/empty.
Needs extra assembler, inserter and space at both ends. How many assemblers do you need to match the new pump speed?

I'm also not sure about the throughput. Belts might be faster than pipes but what about loading/unloading? Especially early in the game unloading a cargo wagon takes ages compared to a fluid wagon. Compare 3 pumps versus 6 (12 for double sided) fast inserters without bonus.

Last your pipe speed depends on the length of pipe. When you go from fluid wagon to tank to consumer there is hardly any pipe in there. With barrels there is the same amount of pipe and no belts unless you need more than 4 assembler per cargo wagon. I think when you need that much throughput then simply build a second train stop. Only way I see to reduce the amount of pipe would be with an assembler per consumer and that would be wasteful. Nothing consumes fluid as fast as the assembler produces.

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Re: liquid filtering for pumps, tanks and wagons

Post by mrvn » Tue May 09, 2017 12:13 pm

AndrewIRL wrote:
bobingabout wrote:I mean, yeah, you could do that, but then what's the point in having a fluid wagon?
They are pretty and have a cool fill animation?

Barrels need to be nerfed to bring them down to the fluid wagon and pipe level as suggested here: Barrels hold too much liquid. but you already know about that because you are also active in that thread!
I think fluid wagons need to be brought down or tanks brought up. A tank takes up 3x3 = 9 m^2 while a fluid wagon takes up 2x6 = 12 m^2 but holds as much as 3 tanks (27 m^2). And a tank should be higher than a fluid wagon (or even build into the ground) while a fluid wagon also has the wagon part underneath. Overall I would think a tank should be at least as big as a fluid wagon and at most 10 times as big.

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Re: liquid filtering for pumps, tanks and wagons

Post by AndrewIRL » Tue May 09, 2017 12:36 pm

mrvn wrote:I think fluid wagons need to be brought down or tanks brought up. A tank takes up 3x3 = 9 m^2 while a fluid wagon takes up 2x6 = 12 m^2 but holds as much as 3 tanks (27 m^2). And a tank should be higher than a fluid wagon (or even build into the ground) while a fluid wagon also has the wagon part underneath. Overall I would think a tank should be at least as big as a fluid wagon and at most 10 times as big.
Steam storage tanks are already OP. You can store 2500 steam and generate 5.8MW using only 60/s - that's 241MJ of "battery" in 9m^2. That's the equivalent of 48 accumulators taking up 192 m^2 and costing x10 more to produce.

Making the storage tanks even bigger would be worsen this unless steam storage is nerfed hard.

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Re: liquid filtering for pumps, tanks and wagons

Post by British_Petroleum » Tue May 09, 2017 12:59 pm

mrvn wrote:It would be nice if one could set pumps to only pump a specific liquid. It really sucks when your water wagon stops at the oil refinery at the wrong place and the water gets pumped into the crude oil pipes or something. Similar it would be nice if tanks and wagons could be set to only accept a specific liquid.

Note: Extra gold stars for the developers if the filter can be set via circuit networks.
If the stations are labelled appropriately, it's hard to send a train to the wrong station. Worst case is you have to rebuild some pipes. This would be like using filter inserters to unload iron in case you accidentally send a copper train

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Re: liquid filtering for pumps, tanks and wagons

Post by mrvn » Thu May 11, 2017 12:29 pm

AndrewIRL wrote:
mrvn wrote:I think fluid wagons need to be brought down or tanks brought up. A tank takes up 3x3 = 9 m^2 while a fluid wagon takes up 2x6 = 12 m^2 but holds as much as 3 tanks (27 m^2). And a tank should be higher than a fluid wagon (or even build into the ground) while a fluid wagon also has the wagon part underneath. Overall I would think a tank should be at least as big as a fluid wagon and at most 10 times as big.
Steam storage tanks are already OP. You can store 2500 steam and generate 5.8MW using only 60/s - that's 241MJ of "battery" in 9m^2. That's the equivalent of 48 accumulators taking up 192 m^2 and costing x10 more to produce.

Making the storage tanks even bigger would be worsen this unless steam storage is nerfed hard.
The tanks only have to be bigger than fluid wagons in relation. Making the fluid wagon smaller has the same effect.

As for steam: Steam is much less dense than oil. The energy density is way less. So 1000l oil should have much more energy than 1000l steam. And 1000l water should produce way more than 1000l steam. If 1l of water turns into 10l of steam and the speed of steam in pipes and usage in steam engines and so on is increased 10 fold wouldn't that even things out (Instead of 10 compute the right factor to make the energy density make sense)? My suggestion would be to basically have a stack size for liquids and have pipes move stacks of liquid.

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Re: liquid filtering for pumps, tanks and wagons

Post by Dionysos » Sat May 13, 2017 8:45 am

I strongly agree with ssilk. There is a Big Problem when using LTN. I tried to burn the rests of the Fluid when the Tanker is in a Depot with a Mod (Flare Stack). But this is not solving the Problem, cause Flare Stack needs
an amount of 10 to burn it. When the Rest in a Tanker is only 3 x 0.2 for example, the liquid will stay in the pipes. Now another Liquid "rest" arrives in the Depot and then you have multipe fluids in the pipes and
all is broken.

I guess the only way to solve this is to barrel the liquids. Thats not nice, cause i like the new Tanker, pumps and animations.

I will try the Idea from bobingabout.

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Re: liquid filtering for pumps, tanks and wagons

Post by mrvn » Sat May 13, 2017 6:17 pm

Dionysos wrote:I strongly agree with ssilk. There is a Big Problem when using LTN. I tried to burn the rests of the Fluid when the Tanker is in a Depot with a Mod (Flare Stack). But this is not solving the Problem, cause Flare Stack needs
an amount of 10 to burn it. When the Rest in a Tanker is only 3 x 0.2 for example, the liquid will stay in the pipes. Now another Liquid "rest" arrives in the Depot and then you have multipe fluids in the pipes and
all is broken.

I guess the only way to solve this is to barrel the liquids. Thats not nice, cause i like the new Tanker, pumps and animations.

I will try the Idea from bobingabout.
If you connect 3 pumps to the fluid wagon then each tank will get emptied. With only one pump at the front I noticed only the first tank on the wagon gets empty, the other 2 keep the symbol for their content (which I assume means there is something left) while still showing 0.0. Setting 5 seconds of inactivity instead of fluid empty might help too.

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Re: liquid filtering for pumps, tanks and wagons

Post by AileTheAlien » Sat May 13, 2017 11:44 pm

mrvn wrote:It really sucks when your water wagon stops at the oil refinery at the wrong place
You could just have separate train stops for each liquid being (un)loaded. It takes up more space, but it's fool-proof. Hence why I use it. :)

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Re: liquid filtering for pumps, tanks and wagons

Post by ssilk » Wed May 17, 2017 11:26 am

That doesn't make sense if you play with Logistic Trains Mod.
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Re: liquid filtering for pumps, tanks and wagons

Post by AileTheAlien » Thu May 18, 2017 11:41 pm

ssilk wrote:That doesn't make sense if you play with Logistic Trains Mod.
That sounds like a problem for the mod, not vanilla. :)

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Re: liquid filtering for pumps, tanks and wagons

Post by ssilk » Sun May 21, 2017 1:15 pm

Hmmmmm. Yes, currently it's especially a problem for that mod, but it could happen also in vanilla in very seldom cases. Indeed it's a fundamental problem and I try to explain the case, when that can happen:

With items it's simple to say something "Wait at this station until all unloaded OR max. 90 seconds."
This has a small chance, that not all is unloaded, when the train leaves to the next stop. Sure, you can remove the 90 secs timeout, but it should not wait forever; if it will not be used in times when there is low throughout needed, it makes much sense to keep it rolling from time to time to "test", if everything is still working fine.

If you use wagon stack filters, you can just load what you want and the unloading is made at that stop, that has the right filters for that.
But with liquids this will not work! Cause if there is a small rest in the tank wagon the wagon cannot be filled with something different.
And to make the dilemma more clear: You also cannot just empty it anywhere, like with items. It will keep this content, until at some stop this rest is slurped in.

And what happens then? Well. Have much fun. :) It costs me 1 hour to put the sulfur acid out of the crude oil and it is SO difficult to see, where are some tiny little rests remaining.

How can you prevent the game from doing that? Right: Just with filtering pump; that would be the simplest way...
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