Of Boilers & Pipes

[CreeperDaReeper]

I'm not going to suggest any new kinds of boilers or pipes since both have been done to death.



Currently to get water we have to make an Offshore Pump and place it at the edge of a body of water.

Offshore Pump with Boiler for comparison

Now I ask you. What the heck does the pump run off of? Static electricity?
My idea/suggestion is this. Get rid of the Offshore Pump and have the boiler act as one when placed as shown in the picture. As in at the edge of a body of water.



The idea for pipes has been covered in many suggestions already.
Either add a recipe for covered pipes (catwalks) that is pretty much a pipe plus an iron plate. Would only work for regular pipes.
Or add a researchable upgrade for regular pipes that when researched sinks them into the ground. (Yes I know there's a mod that does this already. Not sure if its still useable though.)

[hoho]

Often I find that water is quite far from the place I want to use it. Water is also used for many other things besides producing electricity.

I'd prefer having a burner-pump and electric pumps. The current one is, in my opinion, not compatible with most of the rest of the ideas in Factorio by doing work for no investment.

[ssilk]

The problem is the same as with the belts and already has been discussed:

- The off-shore pump is need to generate the first electricity. If that pump needs electricity you need to produce electricity to make it run. See it?
- the same reason as with the belts: what does it bring from game-play sight, when this pump needed electricity.

The devs left some option open: they said somewhere, that they think about optional using energy (coal, like the burners? Or electricity?), but it will - due to the said reason - always be needed to start the steam engine up.

[Rahjital]

The problem is the same as with the belts and already has been discussed:

- The off-shore pump is need to generate the first electricity. If that pump needs electricity you need to produce electricity to make it run. See it?
- the same reason as with the belts: what does it bring from game-play sight, when this pump needed electricity.

The devs left some option open: they said somewhere, that they think about optional using energy (coal, like the burners? Or electricity?), but it will - due to the said reason - always be needed to start the steam engine up.

Well, that's the reason coal pumps have been proposed. Personally, I would like to see the entire coal stage expanded, with burner labs and assemblers, because currently everyone just skips straight to electricity while ignoring burners completely.

As for the second question, I believe pumps are a completely different thing from belts. Pumps provide an infinite amount of water (an essential resource) for free, without any disadvantages. In a way, they are superior even to solar panels Just look at what some users have done with water pumps. Making pumps need electricity would be pointless if steam engines were the only thing requiring water, but you also need water in chemical recipes and advanced refining. Having water cost energy will give another reason to think about our factory management, making gameplay more engaging.

[ssilk]

Too much thinking, too less patience.
The potential expansion of the coal stage (has already been discussed with a tendency against that - I explain that for others who read this) has in my eyes nothing to do with this. The usage of the off-shore pump is to initialize the first electric power, not elongate the coal stage.

We don't know, what the future will bring, but it is defined by the devs (see proposals board), that there will be more electrical power stuff. So the current view is temporary. And may change radically.

And to your question: the off-shoreump delivers always water. So, yes, water is free. But have a look what you can do, if it is at some time possible to turn it easily on and off: https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... f=8&t=3724

This example shows in my eyes very well, that unlimited resource is nothing, if the flow of that resource cannot be controlled. And one of the next steps in development will be the introduction of that.

So just wait and see.

[CreeperDaReeper]

- snip -

I don't want the Offshore Pump to use electricity ssilk, I want it to run on coal/wood/solid fuel/etc. So I just suggested letting the boiler do that, since physics wise, it would work.

[Gammro]

- snip -

I don't want the Offshore Pump to use electricity ssilk, I want it to run on coal/wood/solid fuel/etc. So I just suggested letting the boiler do that, since physics wise, it would work.

What Ssilk did was explain that the devs made a conscious decision about pump energy use, and why they chose for that. Unless something entirely new comes to discussion, I don't think the devs will change their minds.

[Robbedem]

They could change the water requirement for steam engines, since IRL they actually don't need to consume water. They do use water, but the water can be 100% recycled. What steam engines need is a a pressure difference. This is provided between steam and water. To make the steam into water, it needs to be cooled and their exist two main options for that: a cooling tower or long pipes cooled by the environment. Both options would fit very well in factorio:
cooling tower
+ able to condense large amounts of steam into water on relatively small surface area (f.e. 10 steam machines for 1 cooling tower)
- consumes part of the water (=> needs water input and water output) (f.e. one input and one output water pump needed per tower)
- more knowledge is needed for the construcion (=> requires research)

long pipes cooled by their environment (air/lake/river/... )
+ recycles 100% of the water (no water pumps are needed)
+ cheap and easy to build (no/less research is required)
+ doesn't require a pump (gravity can be used since steam rises on its own, although in reality a pump is still used)
- takes more space
- transforming large amounts of steam into water requires a lot of pipe (f.e. 10 tiles of pipe above ground for each steam machine)

So technically to make a steam engine run, having a heat and cold source would be enough. The heat source is the boiler, the cold source could be just a stretch of pipe early in the game. A cooling tower, that would need a water pump (or even two), would be able to handle more steam machines for later in the game.

Adding the "stretch of pipe" as a cooling mechanism for the steam engines, would eliminate the problem with water pumps. Now they could require elektricity to run, they could even require an electric engine in their build requirement.

[ssilk]

I've found it:

https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... rgy#p15128
https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... rgy#p15165

[Rahjital]

I can't say I agree with replacing pumps with boilers. It would make sense if water was only used in steam engines, but remember that you need it in several chemical recipes too.

Well, if the devs decide against expanding the coal stage, then we should at least have the possibility of modding it in ourselves.

As of now, pumps are pretty much pointless in the game - if you removed the need for water in recipes and steam engines, nothing would change (apart from needing to build steam engines near water, but water is everywhere anyway).

It's good to see the devs are aware of the issue.

[CreeperDaReeper]

I can't say I agree with replacing pumps with boilers. It would make sense if water was only used in steam engines, but remember that you need it in several chemical recipes too.
Well, if the devs decide against expanding the coal stage, then we should at least have the possibility of modding it in ourselves.
As of now, pumps are pretty much pointless in the game - if you removed the need for water in recipes and steam engines, nothing would change (apart from needing to build steam engines near water, but water is everywhere anyway).
It's good to see the devs are aware of the issue.

I'm not saying remove water from any of the recipes that require it.

Too much thinking, too less patience.
The potential expansion of the coal stage (has already been discussed with a tendency against that - I explain that for others who read this) has in my eyes nothing to do with this. The usage of the off-shore pump is to initialize the first electric power, not elongate the coal stage.
We don't know, what the future will bring, but it is defined by the devs (see proposals board), that there will be more electrical power stuff. So the current view is temporary. And may change radically.
And to your question: the off-shoreump delivers always water. So, yes, water is free. But have a look what you can do, if it is at some time possible to turn it easily on and off: https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... f=8&t=3724
This example shows in my eyes very well, that unlimited resource is nothing, if the flow of that resource cannot be controlled. And one of the next steps in development will be the introduction of that.
So just wait and see.

What Ssilk did was explain that the devs made a conscious decision about pump energy use, and why they chose for that. Unless something entirely new comes to discussion, I don't think the devs will change their minds.

The difference between the Offshore Pump and the Conveyor Belts is that you don't need many pumps to run a large base, where's you more than likely need hundreds of belts.