Waste production Mod/Development proposal

[Alien_Squasher]

Hi, So I have an idea for a waste system in factorio. Generally speaking there are 4 types of waste

1. Solid state, toxic waste

2. Liquid state, petrochemical/electronic waste

3. Air Pollution (Already implemented)

4. High-Level Radioactive waste (For nuclear reactors in 0.15)

1&4. I think 'dumps' should be implemented for solid and radioactive waste that act as part of the 'air pollution' system, this avoids overcomplicating things, with the waste dumps acting kind of like ore piles but different in the fact that it stacks up (Maybe use an elevation like graphical effect for 'stacks'), and the more waste you have on one tile the more 'air pollution' it produces. Radioactive waste in one of these piles would produce a lot more pollution than normal solid waste, (Say 0.01 pollution/tick for every unit of radioactive waste compared to 0.0001 for every solid waste unit there). This would balance out the nuclear system and make it so you have to carefully manage your waste dumps and keep the area clear of aliens lest you provoke attacks. A few other systems that should be implemented for waste dumps are: Radioactive waste drains shields and slowly damages health until you move out of a 20 tile by 20 tile radius of radioactive waste, with the necessary amount for this to be applied being 400 radioactive waste units or something like that (Depending on how much fuel a 0.15 reactor consumes). Finally 'dumps' should be able to stack to 11k a tile or something relatively balanced like that. If you think radioactive waste is unbalanced then you could add in a dissipation rate to simulate radioactive decay.

2. For liquid petrochem/electronic waste (all considered 'liquid waste' to simplify things) I think there should be a few systems, the first one being groundwater contamination (Basically a modified temperature value that is affected only by how many units of liquid waste have been dumped into a water source vs how many tiles of water there are) where if we use a ratio (Balanced for 0.15 of course) of something like for every 1 tile of water a source of water can hold 3000 liquid waste units (Plus 5000 or something for the overall source of water) before becoming contaminated. The effects of contamination being: Every tile of water produces 'air pollution' based on a 0.0001/tick ratio like solid waste. Also what would be really cool is if you made the water look contaminated as well, like brown or really dirty or something. Finally the effect of contaminated water on machinery, Steam engines cannot boil contaminated water so power production grinds to a halt, and chemical plants can't use it. If you think this needs balancing you could add in a dissipation effect for contaminated water. Also, liquid waste should be able to be barreled and stored.

Production of solid waste: Assembly machines produce 1 piece of 'solid waste' per item produced times the number of ingredients needed to make said item (For example Iron gears would produce 1 piece of waste, and inserters would produce 3). To balance this, crafting by hand does not produce waste.

Production of liquid waste: Chemical plants use 1 output port for waste, with 1 unit of liquid waste for every cycle of the plant (if you crack light oil to petroleum for example, you'll produce 1 liquid waste unit per process (the production bar filling up)).

Production of Radioactive waste: Depending on how Nuclear reactors in 0.15 turn out, radioactive waste should be produced in a ratio of something like 2 radioactive waste units to 1 fuel rod or whatever reactors will use. If you think 2 to 1 is unbalanced then balance it according to the benefits of nuclear reactors.

All in all reactors need a drawback. They should produce 'pollution' but this should be the kind you can belt over to your dump in the middle of nowhere and not worry about pissing off aliens. This adds in a way to control pollution from power production without the need for overpowered air scrubbers (No offense to the modder, I love that mod).

[ssilk]

Added to viewtopic.php?f=80&t=21278 Recycling/Disassembling of Waste / Scrap / Trash

To be honest: There are so many suggestions around the waste, that I don't read them very thoroughly.

And I counted over 40 suggestions around waste and handling waste, containing some with extreme deep discussions.

It is no question for me, that the devs need to do something here, cause that seems to be an ever-repeating thread for players: What to do with the things I don't need anymore. And I think it is important to make here a most simple solution (either a waste box or a trash-button for example) before v1.0.

[deepdriller]

Oh yes, I've discussed this before. It seems to me that people who suggest this do so to increase realism- without ever considering the crippling impact this would have on gameplay.
Long story short: It's not viable. It's not interesting. It makes things more complicated for the sake of complexity. And it would change the game into a logistical nightmare.
Please stop suggesting this.

[ssilk]

Please stop suggesting this.

Do you mean me or Alien_Squasher?

[Strategic Sage]

It seems to me that people who suggest this do so to increase realism- without ever considering the crippling impact this would have on gameplay.

Alternatively, perhaps they have considered in the impact on gameplay and don't think it's crippling. In terms of, as you put it, 'logistical nightmare' -- that's like half the point of factorio: dealing with logistical issues. I'd like something a little more difficult than a generic 'trash can', an incinerator or similar, for the vanilla game.

[deepdriller]

When I say "logistical nightmare", I mean in a way that's not fun.
You realize new players are overwhelmed with the content as it is, right? If every entity has a trash output, everything gets even more complicated. Hell, every non-filter inserter would become entirely useless!
My point being: If there is a way to mod this in, someone should write it. Then you'll see what I mean.

[Alien_Squasher]

Oh yes, I've discussed this before. It seems to me that people who suggest this do so to increase realism- without ever considering the crippling impact this would have on gameplay.
Long story short: It's not viable. It's not interesting. It makes things more complicated for the sake of complexity. And it would change the game into a logistical nightmare.
Please stop suggesting this.

This particular system would not have a crippling effect on gameplay, Why? Because the way waste could be modeled to work. The Devs can do SO MUCH with this system while keeping it super simple. One waste type if you want. Just "Trash" and "Liquid trash". Add in some simple models for trash piles and liquid trash dumps. Bam. That's one inserter extra per assembly machine, and an extra thing to do with a chemical plant. Not a huge deal. This is not bob's mods. This is a waste system. Super simple, Basic in terms of how simply you can do it. Adds in a new curve that keeps old players coming back again and again, and spices up the game a little, and allows for the ability to actually manage pollution instead of it just being rampant and problematic. So strategy and planning become more involved. Also, it is viable. May not be interesting to you, but with the number of people that want this would probably be greater than the ones who don't. I suggest a poll for this.

[Alien_Squasher]

It seems to me that people who suggest this do so to increase realism- without ever considering the crippling impact this would have on gameplay.

Alternatively, perhaps they have considered in the impact on gameplay and don't think it's crippling. In terms of, as you put it, 'logistical nightmare' -- that's like half the point of factorio: dealing with logistical issues. I'd like something a little more difficult than a generic 'trash can', an incinerator or similar, for the vanilla game.

Congradulations! You get the point of this. The game is already a "logistical nightmare", it's about spicing this up a bit, because though I love factorio, it begins to lose it's replay value over time even with mods. This adds in a whole new process for me to obsess over the game about lol. Also Deepdriller: If I wanted to increase realism I would have suggested that we add in mercuric waste for the creation of electronics in addition to phenolic resin runoff from assembly machines, as well as Kr92 and Ba141 for nuclear reactors (The by-products of nuclear fission) in addition to hydrogen gas that needs to be removed from the reactors or else they will blow their roof's off, and I also probably would have suggested the devs add in alien s*** which we have to clean up after they get mowed down with turrets that produces pollution. I don't mean to be rude, but you're kind of missing the point.

[Alien_Squasher]

When I say "logistical nightmare", I mean in a way that's not fun.
You realize new players are overwhelmed with the content as it is, right? If every entity has a trash output, everything gets even more complicated. Hell, every non-filter inserter would become entirely useless!
My point being: If there is a way to mod this in, someone should write it. Then you'll see what I mean.

Doesn't angel's mods add in trash? But it's like 40 types of waste. It's not that big of a deal if you have 2-4 types of waste that you dispose of in reverse ore piles and liquid trash lakes, and adds in a kind of more present pollution system so you can see the ecological ruin you're causing besides just killing the trees. Factorio has an issue: Take the lorax movie for example, remove all the nasty stuff coming out of that 'plastic city' and just have dead trees and a perfectly green, clean looking landscape with 'air pollution' which is invisible. Do you get the point of the movie and the feel of 'ecological ruin'? Or do you get the feel of 'Yeah this is just another movie for hippies'? You of course get the feeling of the latter. The same goes for Factorio, but in a reverse fashion. I find it incredibly interesting concept to have the ability to completely spoil the planet we're building our factories on with pollution.

[Alien_Squasher]

Added to viewtopic.php?f=80&t=21278 Recycling/Disassembling of Waste / Scrap / Trash

To be honest: There are so many suggestions around the waste, that I don't read them very thoroughly.

And I counted over 40 suggestions around waste and handling waste, containing some with extreme deep discussions.

It is no question for me, that the devs need to do something here, cause that seems to be an ever-repeating thread for players: What to do with the things I don't need anymore. And I think it is important to make here a most simple solution (either a waste box or a trash-button for example) before v1.0.

Thank you. Well it should still be 'Factorio style' with something that makes sense albeit being unrealistic.

[deepdriller]

Alright, maybe you're not explaining it well enough then. Tell me: If every entity in the game has a trash output, how will you make sure that it won't be picked up by regular inserters? How are you going to avoid clogged belts from it without having to place filter inserters everywhere? How are you going to handle long-handed inserters that don't have a filtered variant?
Will the trash simply be transported on belts, thus clogging up the base and making it even harder to make changes afterward? What do you think should ultimately happen to the waste- will it sit there in a dump forever, will the player have to waste resources incinerating it?

In any case, since the devs have announced the introduction of difficulty levels, it might make an interesting addition to harder games. But not for easier levels, PLEASE.

[Alien_Squasher]

Alright, maybe you're not explaining it well enough then. Tell me: If every entity in the game has a trash output, how will you make sure that it won't be picked up by regular inserters? How are you going to avoid clogged belts from it without having to place filter inserters everywhere? How are you going to handle long-handed inserters that don't have a filtered variant?
Will the trash simply be transported on belts, thus clogging up the base and making it even harder to make changes afterward? What do you think should ultimately happen to the waste- will it sit there in a dump forever, will the player have to waste resources incinerating it?

In any case, since the devs have announced the introduction of difficulty levels, it might make an interesting addition to harder games. But not for easier levels, PLEASE.

Thank you, Extremely simple process sir, and only for assembly machines and electric furnaces (Steel and stone furnaces burn off slag "solid waste" also they're only 2x2 making that a problem): Add in a designated specialty waste inserter that can only pick up solid/radioactive waste. And for liquid waste (Since chem plants only have 1 output product for everything in the game) just use one of the already existent ports for liquid waste, or better yet, a waste output port with a simple modifying of the sprite on the side of the plant. Very very very simple. As for waste disposal I'd say ecologically irresponsible trash heaps are the most fun!

[ssilk]

Sorry guys, I don't think this will come into vanilla, cause the game value is not good enough: it adds new side-processes to existing ones and so it just introduces much complexity without much more game.

This can also be implemented more or less simple as mod...

[Alien_Squasher]

Sorry guys, I don't think this will come into vanilla, cause the game value is not good enough: it adds new side-processes to existing ones and so it just introduces much complexity without much more game.

This can also be implemented more or less simple as mod...

Well depends on what you guys want to do with it. I have very little experience balancing out gameplay. I think it would be an interesting thing to have a certain type of pollution besides 'air pollution' implemented sometime before v1.0 or after then. Even if it's just runoff from chemical plants and oil refineries, or basically just a graphical effect, I honestly think this game needs better pollution depiction. Because although everything about this game is pitch perfect, I think the pollution system just isn't present enough. You don't feel evil for pumping out smog because you can't see it lol. But thanks ssilk for looking at this. Any advice on how to begin creating mods myself? I have a basic idea in the form of texture editing/value editing, but any advice on that? I may make this a mod. As well as a fusion reactor.... I've looked long and hard for a fusion power plant mod and found none....

[Arch666Angel]

You dont want waste, just for the sake of adding waste to the game. You want to introduce an additional mechanic or chain to it, so it can be used for something, the waste has to go somewhere, just voiding it is not really rewarding.

[Alien_Squasher]

You dont want waste, just for the sake of adding waste to the game. You want to introduce an additional mechanic or chain to it, so it can be used for something, the waste has to go somewhere, just voiding it is not really rewarding.

Now that is an amazing point. I have not thought of it that way. Perhaps a form of incinerator that produces electricity and a CRAP load of pollution. Or perhaps a reprocessing plant that takes waste and produces light oil from it (Or perhaps methane or something for bob's mods).

[Alien_Squasher]

You dont want waste, just for the sake of adding waste to the game. You want to introduce an additional mechanic or chain to it, so it can be used for something, the waste has to go somewhere, just voiding it is not really rewarding.

Also, seeing as you're a modding legend, could you teach me some modding techniques?

[ssilk]

There are endless possibillities to introduce waste as a gameplay-element. See again then endless list in viewtopic.php?f=80&t=21278 Recycling/Disassembling of Waste / Scrap / Trash

We can part the basic ideas in two components:
a) Just get rid of unused items. This is in my opinion really needed, cause it irritates players, that they have items, that cannot be used somehow. A simple "destroy"-button in inventory or a device that destroys any items would be enough to solve this and would bring not much gameplay, but reduces complexity of the game.

b) Ideas like this: Waste as a new game-element, where something must be done.
The gameplay-value of this is (I repeat me) not so high. Cause you cannot work with this new game-mechanic like the others: When do you introduce it? There is no "time/space" left yet. It suddenly increases game-complexity.
This looks quite different, if this is a mod: Then this new type of gameplay is target of the mod and a player chooses to explicitly use it (could be, cause he already played it through).

Hope this helps to let the discussion go into the right direction.

[meems]

I am all the concept of adding waste and pollution into factorio. This would again be another novel idea for the game that sets it apart from the rest of the management games.

Sorry guys, I don't think this will come into vanilla, cause the game value is not good enough: it adds new side-processes to existing ones and so it just introduces much complexity without much more game.

complexity is game.

U need to get that tatooed on your forehead so u see every morning in the bathroom mirror.
logistical complexity in factorio is the heart of the game. Currently its too easy to have every conveyor belt with one and only one product on. There is a element of the game that is effectively already made for the devs, but they kill it by not having enough side products. That is : logistics of multi product conveyor belts. Pure logistic gameplay, could be the most fun part of the game, killed for no reason, without any trial or playtesting.

Tell me: If every entity in the game has a trash output, how will you make sure that it won't be picked up by regular inserters? How are you going to avoid clogged belts from it without having to place filter inserters everywhere? How are you going to handle long-handed inserters that don't have a filtered variant?

To my mind filter inserters are a good idea that are currently barely necessary due to the lack of complexity in the game. When I use them, its usually for one item type, rarely more. Any gameplay that increases the need for filter inserters is a good thing. In fact going off topic I'd say its gameplay lost that converyors are so cheap that the player can afford conveyors for only one item type at nearly every design decision, although fixing it that by making conveyors somehow more expensive is another topic.


This is besides the part of waste management. Buildings can start off by dumping waste in the local surroundings until the player notices its clogging up the system, whereby he researches waste managment then inserters and pipes can remove waste from a building, whereby its taken to a dump.

You dont want waste, just for the sake of adding waste to the game. You want to introduce an additional mechanic or chain to it, so it can be used for something, the waste has to go somewhere, just voiding it is not really rewarding.

That negates the point of waste. If its got a use its not waste \ pollution, and becomes another product. Waste is an end product, like rockets. Nothing inherently wrong with that. Might as well have them as part of logistics gameplay puzzle rather than as a external non interactive splash animation.

> will it sit there in a dump forever,
Yep. that's the idea of waste.

But the dump won't be a dead object, it will be a magnet for aliens, so the player will be given a balancing problem. A distant dump to keep aliens away from the main base but itself be difficult to defend, or a near dump easier to def, but attract more aleins to main base. Gameplay net major gains.

Also pollution and waste has potential to interact with players need for biosphere objects, which currently barely exists, but may do later. e.g. clean water, trees, food.

One last point.
A waste dump is a little at odds to the current chest system and storage in general. Chests operate as mini space portals wrt to the amount of stuff they can store. i.e. chests store about the same volume of material as a warehouse. We need oil silos for a modest amount of oil, but a chest will store all the products of several oil silos. Chests are too large, and storage in general is too large, for player, car, everything.


well, the waste and dumps system requires a large amount of coding. Unless the devs have been secretly working on pollution for a year, then we can't expect anything more than a token element in v1.0. Will have to wait for v2,0 in summer 2019.

[ssilk]

Sorry guys, I don't think this will come into vanilla, cause the game value is not good enough: it adds new side-processes to existing ones and so it just introduces much complexity without much more game.

complexity is game.

U need to get that tatooed on your forehead so u see every morning in the bathroom mirror.

Hm. U need a piercing on the ears to hear better: a vanilla game is for the mass of players. If it's too complex it is no commercial success, no updates, sad ssilk.

A waste dump is a little at odds to the well, the waste and dumps system requires a large amount of coding. Unless the devs have been secretly working on pollution for a year, then we can't expect anything more than a token element in v1.0. Will have to wait for v2,0 in summer 2019.

Wrong. The basic idea of waste is simple to develop as mod.