Long story short, there are no measurable sources of chaos in game. The only real (relatively) random thing I can think of is map generation. Everything else seems to be deterministic. I am not exactly sure whether biters attack are deterministic or not, but nevertheless it's ridiculously difficult to create a random cell out of biters and not to mention unreliable.
So the suggestion is to add a random combinator that would output a random number from 0 to 2^16-1 each tick.
Why? Because some combinator contraptions require those and there is no real way to add them to the game aside from mods.
Screw the determinacy, it's the age of quantum / Random Combinator
Moderator: ickputzdirwech
Re: Screw the determinacy, it's the age of quantum / Random Combinator
It would still be deterministic.
Everything in the game except user-input is deterministic. That's how MP works.
Everything in the game except user-input is deterministic. That's how MP works.
If you want to get ahold of me I'm almost always on Discord.
Re: Screw the determinacy, it's the age of quantum / Random Combinator
You might want to look up on how pseudorandom generation works. And what exactly is that "random" you are talking about.
Here's link to the most basic generator, that can be implemented with currently available facilities.
And here are blueprint strings of implementations.
Here's link to the most basic generator, that can be implemented with currently available facilities.
And here are blueprint strings of implementations.
once per second 1 to 253
Requested one 7 combinators
I do mods. Modding wiki is friend, it teaches how to mod. Api docs is friend too...
I also update mods, some of them even work.
Recently I did a mod tutorial.
I also update mods, some of them even work.
Recently I did a mod tutorial.
Re: Screw the determinacy, it's the age of quantum / Random Combinator
It would still be deterministic.
Yeah, yeah, I know that. I didn't use word "pseudorandom" for convenience.You might want to look up on how pseudorandom generation works. And what exactly is that "random" you are talking about.
This generator requires someone to input a seed value and perhaps a multiplier and modulus. Which basically means that the results will be reproducible if the three are known.Here's link to the most basic generator, that can be implemented with currently available facilities.
While you can say it's "random", it's not "random" enough because the generator is essentially a white box for everyone.
It appears to me that most (if not all) calculation are done on host's computer.Everything in the game except user-input is deterministic. That's how MP works.
For the most part internal CPU clock is unpredictable enough to be used for a pseudorandom generator. In fact, I believe that's what it used in most pseudorandom number generators as a seed value.
Also, Factorio uses quite a lot of CPU and CPU usage is somewhat unstable so it makes it even better.
Re: Screw the determinacy, it's the age of quantum / Random Combinator
Each map has a seed. You can even enter it by hand on map settings screen. Thats the seed for the random number generator for the whole game.EditorRUS wrote:It would still be deterministic.Yeah, yeah, I know that. I didn't use word "pseudorandom" for convenience.You might want to look up on how pseudorandom generation works. And what exactly is that "random" you are talking about.
This generator requires someone to input a seed value and perhaps a multiplier and modulus. Which basically means that the results will be reproducible if the three are known.Here's link to the most basic generator, that can be implemented with currently available facilities.
While you can say it's "random", it's not "random" enough because the generator is essentially a white box for everyone.
It appears to me that most (if not all) calculation are done on host's computer.Everything in the game except user-input is deterministic. That's how MP works.
For the most part internal CPU clock is unpredictable enough to be used for a pseudorandom generator. In fact, I believe that's what it used in most pseudorandom number generators as a seed value.
Also, Factorio uses quite a lot of CPU and CPU usage is somewhat unstable so it makes it even better.
Usually things like additional modulo's etc are set based on required properties of the random number generator so they are constant.
So one number generator for whole map can be used on any machine and it results in "predictable" random numbers used through the game.
Each machine in multiplayer does it's own simulation - due to sheer amount of data thats processed per tick it would be simply impossible to send all the changes through the network for every tick.
Re: Screw the determinacy, it's the age of quantum / Random Combinator
What are you even trying to do? Implement bitcoin inside factorio?EditorRUS wrote:This generator requires someone to input a seed value and perhaps a multiplier and modulus. Which basically means that the results will be reproducible if the three are known.
While you can say it's "random", it's not "random" enough because the generator is essentially a white box for everyone.
On the other hand, I guess this addition is not something that would make game worse.
I do mods. Modding wiki is friend, it teaches how to mod. Api docs is friend too...
I also update mods, some of them even work.
Recently I did a mod tutorial.
I also update mods, some of them even work.
Recently I did a mod tutorial.