Limits directly in assembly machines

[stefaneg]

As much as I like Factorio, I find the usability of setting production limits could be better.

What about setting production limits directly on the selected recipe in the assembly machines when you have circuit networks and/or logistics?

This would save a lot of clicks. As it is now, in order to set a production limit, you have to add a filter inserter to the input/output, set the filter (select same production again), enable condition, select product on condition (third time) and select amount. This is somewhat entertaining for the first 5 times, but once you've done this a few dozen times, this becomes quite tedious.

Setting a production limit on an assembly, you would simply select network to connect to, and production cap on the product being assembled.

This would not necessarily come as a built-in function, could have to produce a "control circuit module" and insert into it similar to productivity/efficiency/speed. Or (my preferred approach), this would be a separate technology which would be installed on all (new?) assembly machines once researched.

[Rseding91]

That goes against good game design. You can already do something with the existing game mechanics and making it possible to do the exact same thing with less thought and logic just makes the game boring.

Just use an inserter with a logic condition.

[stefaneg]

Define boring For me it is doing the same sequence of 10-20 clicks hundreds of times. Figuring out how to do production limits in perhaps fun in the beginning, but repeating it over and over again is a big hindrance in its replayability for me. And I would like to spend my time on something more creative in the game, like designing a cool train system, or a state-of-the-art defense system. As a software designer, my view is that having multiple ways to achieve the same result is generally not bad thing. In that case you implement the generic, flexible "correct" way, and also the more specific way optimized for a specific, common use case.

Anyways, I guess you have considered this option and rejected it already. But can you at least optimize the setup of the logistics limits a little bit, by reversing the default of the < = > operator, and putting a sensible default there, like 100 ?

[stefaneg]

To add to this, for me the fun of factorio is the sheer scale of the factories and the complexity of the world you can create. Its not as much in the itty gritty details of settings like the production limits. I think that by optimizing use cases like this, you can emphasize the strengths of the game and make it more fun. And don't think of fun like a programmer who likes conditional statements

[Yoyobuae]

Don't you just need to do it one time and then you can copy&paste the settings around. Or are you saying that even doing it the first time for each production type is to much already?

I'm not getting exactly what you claim to take too much clicks, can you explain with an example?

[ssilk]

I can understand some of what he means.

The setup of one production-limited item takes a bit too much clicks/keys (in the following I count keys and mouse clicks as both one key press):
- place assembly (select via quick-bar and click or press E, select click, E, place click, so between 2 and 4 keys)
- place request chest, provider, and minimum two inserters around und it (a minimum of 8 o 16 keys plus minimum or 2 to 8 presses of R)
- selection of what to produce (open, change, select, close. Between 4 and 5 keys)
- copy from assembly to requester chest (shift right, shift left, 4 keys)
- adjust default requests (they never match, between 8 to 16 keys - plus this selector is a mess cause so small)
- adjust inserter to limit production (open, select logistic, select item, select operators, select number, close - let's say between 7 and 9 keys)

In sum:
Between 33 and 62 keys or clicks (if calced correct).
Let's say a good player can do 200 keys per minute, the he needs between 10 and 19 seconds. That would be ok.
But a not so good player can click only once per second: he needs in the bad case over 3 minutes. And a beginner takes 5 or 10.

It's just too much afford to set up things like so. Over and over.

Blueprints help a lot, but you cannot use them every time. What's rally needed is some clever way to reduce number of key presses.

[stefaneg]

ssilk reply is spot on.

[Yoyobuae]

In sum:
Between 33 and 62 keys or clicks (if calced correct).
Let's say a good player can do 200 keys per minute, the he needs between 10 and 19 seconds. That would be ok.
But a not so good player can click only once per second: he needs in the bad case over 3 minutes. And a beginner takes 5 or 10.

And how many it would be without bots? I'd say it is plenty cheap already.

Now, it would be nice to have a way to read the read the recipe ingredients and the recipe product from the assembler somehow. That way a circuit setup could be made that auto-adjusts the the request and production limit based on the assembler recipe. Then it's simply matter of stamping a blueprint and setting assembler recipe.

[ssilk]

Hm. I think you don't understand the problem. That is, a beginner or medium fast player needs minutes to build this the first time and more than half a minute just to change the produced item.

And this combination of assembly, inserters, requesters and providers is needed so often...

[Mehve]

I can understand some of what he means.

The setup of one production-limited item takes a bit too much clicks/keys (in the following I count keys and mouse clicks as both one key press):
- place assembly (select via quick-bar and click or press E, select click, E, place click, so between 2 and 4 keys)
- place request chest, provider, and minimum two inserters around und it (a minimum of 8 o 16 keys plus minimum or 2 to 8 presses of R)
- selection of what to produce (open, change, select, close. Between 4 and 5 keys)
- copy from assembly to requester chest (shift right, shift left, 4 keys)
- adjust default requests (they never match, between 8 to 16 keys - plus this selector is a mess cause so small)
- adjust inserter to limit production (open, select logistic, select item, select operators, select number, close - let's say between 7 and 9 keys)

In sum:
Between 33 and 62 keys or clicks (if calced correct).
Let's say a good player can do 200 keys per minute, the he needs between 10 and 19 seconds. That would be ok.
But a not so good player can click only once per second: he needs in the bad case over 3 minutes. And a beginner takes 5 or 10.

It's just too much afford to set up things like so. Over and over.

Blueprints help a lot, but you cannot use them every time. What's rally needed is some clever way to reduce number of key presses.

I get that list, but I also have to question whether being able to set limits in the assembler would actually change much, aside from the final step where you limit an inserter? You COULD somehow arrange for an automated process to be triggered that set the chest accordingly, but to what triggers exactly? To what request amounts? Depending on the production cycle time, output demand, bot supply, and square footage of the logistics network, the buffer of necessary ingredients isn't going to be a consistent amount.

It's not that bad to just have a standard blueprint for two assemblers, each with their own pair of inserters, sharing a request and provider chest between them. Lay it down, choose a recipe, copy-paste to the request chest, tweak the numbers, and tell the input inserter when to stop. Done. When setting up multiple assemblers for the same product, lay down the first one, set it up, blueprint copy-paste until sufficient numbers exist. On a list of tedious things, it honestly doesn't rank that high, I find.

[ssilk]

I get that list, but I also have to question whether being able to set limits in the assembler would actually change much, aside from the final step where you limit an inserter?

Oh, well, I made that off-topic again...

No, I mean this: A limit in the assemblies is just one point of many. The problem is eventually much deeper...

You COULD somehow arrange for an automated process to be triggered that set the chest accordingly, but to what triggers exactly? To what request amounts? Depending on the production cycle time, output demand, bot supply, and square footage of the logistics network, the buffer of necessary ingredients isn't going to be a consistent amount.
It's not that bad to just have a standard blueprint for two assemblers, each with their own pair of inserters, sharing a request and provider chest between them. Lay it down, choose a recipe, copy-paste to the request chest, tweak the numbers, and tell the input inserter when to stop. Done. When setting up multiple assemblers for the same product, lay down the first one, set it up, blueprint copy-paste until sufficient numbers exist. On a list of tedious things, it honestly doesn't rank that high, I find.

I did think a lot about this. In my opinion this is a problem of regulation techniques.
Hm, that's the direct German translation and I don't know, how it is called in English.
What I mean is this:

The German words don't matter much. The point is: This part regulates in most heatings the temperature of the water, eventually depending by the outside temperatur in a way, that in the living room the temperature is most times ok.

For Factorio this means: Depending on the needed amount of items over some time it requests more or less. There is nowhere a setting "run until X items produced". Sometimes there are more, sometimes, there are less, just like the temp in your living-room. And it depends on, how much oil (or whatever) is pumped into the heating.

Or how much items are requested by the requester chest.

[Mehve]

So the ability to set up a PID controller of sorts, with it varying the levels of input inventory bases on how low the output stock drops? That could be all kinds of fun, although a fairly far cry from the OP

[ssilk]

Yeah, I know.
I just think that would be much more fun...

[Engimage]

I am sure that adding circuit network connection to assemblers is a must have feature. You could implement several modes to it like on/off condition, inventory output, item build progress etc.
It is up to a player where he should add circuit logic. Limiting here is not a good choice.
This feature will not remove anything from the game as there will still be much uses for filter inserters. But the most common task will be made much easier to complete for most players.

[ssilk]

I am sure that adding circuit network connection to assemblers is a must have feature. You could implement several modes to it like on/off condition, inventory output, item build progress etc.

Hm. Well, such a change needs other changes. For example more control over the inserters, reading contents of assembly...

[Gertibrumm]

For example more control over the inserters, reading contents of assembly...

Why more control over inserters? Please elaborate!
For my part, I am fine with enable/disable + pulse hand read.

[Deadly-Bagel]

As it is now, in order to set a production limit, you have to add a filter inserter to the input/output, set the filter (select same production again), enable condition, select product on condition (third time) and select amount.

Why do you need to use a filter inserter? If you're restricting input, it will ONLY move items that the Assembler can take. If you're restricting output, there's only one item it possibly can extract.

So the process is just connecting any inserter to a circuit or logistic network (it's automatically set to Enable/Disable), selecting the item, cycling to '<' and setting the number. If you have multiple inserters for something it can be copied between them.

The only part of that process that could do with streamlining is the selecting of the product in the circuit condition, and I must admit this is tedious at times. I haven't actually tried it so not sure if it already works but if you click a signal selector box in a circuit condition with an item in the cursor, it should automatically set it to that item. Not sure if it's feasible to copy+paste an Assembler to an Inserter to set it that way? But that could be another shortcut.

[aober93]

I can understand some of what he means.

The setup of one production-limited item takes a bit too much clicks/keys (in the following I count keys and mouse clicks as both one key press):
- place assembly (select via quick-bar and click or press E, select click, E, place click, so between 2 and 4 keys)
- place request chest, provider, and minimum two inserters around und it (a minimum of 8 o 16 keys plus minimum or 2 to 8 presses of R)
- selection of what to produce (open, change, select, close. Between 4 and 5 keys)

Is this topic a joke? lol
What exactly do you want to avoid placing assemblers and selecting the recipe here? Perhaps the devs add a factory blueprint. 1 Button BAM factory done. No more tediously placing assemblers manually

I thought the OP wanted to set a production limit in the assembler. This would impose various problems that extends way beyond current game design. Because "missing" is pretty much a relative term. The Limit is either a full belt ,chest, or since you can limit chests, the limited chest. You can add circuit logic to perform better limits, but you dont need it at all. What is it you want again?

Oh and why exactly do you need a filter inserter to limit amounts? A filter inserter is there to limit item types, but not amounts. And its not only theoretical.

[ssilk]

To whom are you responding? Did you quote right?

[Gertibrumm]

To whom are you responding? Did you quote right?

The respond to the quote was the first paragraph, the second paragraph is to the topic in general which is a farce in my opinion just like aober93 concluded