Late game annoyance

[Entelin]

Trains should be able to run over a few green mobs before being stopped. I'm at max evolution, and I think I turned up the aliens when I started the map as well. However aliens will occasionally wander onto the track, the train will stop and then the engine will be destroyed by them. It's then a manual process to go down there, replace the engine... it's annoying.

I even started building walls up and down all the tracks, but on rare occasion they will still bite through it and get hit by the train again, so thats pretty suboptimal.

Of course I could just build a massive turreted wall around my entire map.... Or add turrets to the tracks. However considering I would then also have to automate the repair and replacement of all those turrets I don't really like that solution. I don't want to make the whole world my base like I've seen many do here.

The easy solution to this whole problem is just to allow the TRAIN to run over max evolution aliens just like it does the weaker ones. The other solution would be to add a defense car, or some kind of patrolling defense mechanic. In any case the solution should be something other than walling off your entire map.

Thanks

[Ranakastrasz]

Wow. I didn't think anything could survive a direct hit from a train.


Although, I think I survived with 1k+ shields at one point, but I never re-thought about it after Behemoths were added.

I suppose we need a modified engine with a cattlecatcher attached. (And a scifi enhanced one that actually pushes high weight stuff out of the way)
That, and laser wagons...

Try one of those mods that add grids to train engines and cars. Add shield and a ton of laser turrets. Probably want to buff the laser turrets first with another mod.

Oh, and you cannot reach maximum evolution. It approaches a limit at 100%, and never reached it until you play for infinite time, kill infinite bases, or pollute an infinite amount. Admittedly, when you get past 99.99% it isn't going to matter much.

Not entirely being serious here, but that is interesting.

[Entelin]

I'd just up the damage vs aliens such that the train still wrecks them just as well lategame as early game.

Adding additional gameplay would be cool, but there's plenty of cool additional gameplay that can be added on any topic and I don't feel that fixing this issue need wait for more train or combat automation gameplay in general.

When the only real solution is to wall off the whole map, I really feel like the numbers should just be bumped up. The train getting stopped randomly by wandering mobs is not fun for anyone ever and there's no clever engineering solution or anything that fits with the gameplay. Besides riding on a train that occasionally plows through a bunch of mobs IS fun, fun enough to showcase in the trailer, there's no reason this should stop in the lategame.

[BenSeidel]

Oh, and you cannot reach maximum evolution. It approaches a limit at 100%, and never reached it until you play for infinite time, kill infinite bases, or pollute an infinite amount. Admittedly, when you get past 99.99% it isn't going to matter much.

Maximum evolution is 0.9999999999999722, not 1. After that point it is impossible to increase it any further (in vanilla). The whole "it approaches asymptotically" is incorrect as only functions in a real number space can be asymptotic.

[Ranakastrasz]

Oh, and you cannot reach maximum evolution. It approaches a limit at 100%, and never reached it until you play for infinite time, kill infinite bases, or pollute an infinite amount. Admittedly, when you get past 99.99% it isn't going to matter much.

Maximum evolution is 0.9999999999999722, not 1. After that point it is impossible to increase it any further (in vanilla). The whole "it approaches asymptotically" is incorrect as only functions in a real number space can be asymptotic.

True, you will eventually end up with adding zero when you take a Evo factor increasing event due to rounding errors. But it is asymptotic, based on the equation given in the wiki. At least so far as I can tell. Each base you kill is less effective, and it approaches but never reaches 100%.

https://wiki.factorio.com/Enemies#Methods_of_increasing

[BenSeidel]

The Wiki is incorrect then. While the formula stated is asymptotic - the limit of E as T tends to infinity is 1, factorio does not use that formula. Factorio does not use real numbers but floating point numbers. For the formula to be correct you would need to truncate the values after each iteration.

Anyway, my point is that when people use terms like "maximum evolution", they are correct in doing so. Factorio does have a maximum evolution. The standard response that many people post with something similar to "It's asymptotic" is incorrect.

[Deadly-Bagel]

What it is, is irrelevant.

I would suggest having trains bump objects to the side with a minor loss of speed. If the entity cannot be moved to the side (due to collision with another entity) it should try to push it forward instead, then collide with it again and re-apply the damage and speed loss, repeating until the entity dies, can be moved out of the way, or the train comes to a stop.

AFAIK it would be pretty difficult to get something stuck... You would need something like a pumpjack up against the rails to prevent it being pushed to the side, then a bunch more biters or w/e behind the colliding entity to stop it being pushed back. Pretty fringe circumstances that should mean the extra damage won't make train defences a thing, and it will still be difficult to kill behemoths. A gigantic wave of biters would be able to stop a train still but seriously you've got bigger problems lol.

[ssilk]

Like the unstoppable train in Snowpiercer http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1706620/

[<NO_NAME>]

I would suggest having trains bump objects to the side with a minor loss of speed. If the entity cannot be moved to the side (due to collision with another entity) it should try to push it forward instead, then collide with it again and re-apply the damage and speed loss, repeating until the entity dies, can be moved out of the way, or the train comes to a stop.

Kudo!

Both damages that train gives and its lost of speed could be modified by research (e.g. "engine power"), in order to not make trains too op at the early game and too weak at the late game.
That would have a disadvantage that player itself wouldn't be safe from trains, even with the Power armor MK2. At least, early-game safe crossings and all that infrastructure wouldn't become useless so quickly.

[ssilk]

Some biters stopped some of my trains by crossing the rails in that moment, when the train comes. They run into the SIDE of the train and stopped the whole train with this. The stopped train then is attacked. I lost some trains like so.

[Deadly-Bagel]

I would suggest having trains bump objects to the side with a minor loss of speed. If the entity cannot be moved to the side (due to collision with another entity) it should try to push it forward instead, then collide with it again and re-apply the damage and speed loss, repeating until the entity dies, can be moved out of the way, or the train comes to a stop.

Kudo!

Both damages that train gives and its lost of speed could be modified by research (e.g. "engine power"), in order to not make trains too op at the early game and too weak at the late game.
That would have a disadvantage that player itself wouldn't be safe from trains, even with the Power armor MK2. At least, early-game safe crossings and all that infrastructure wouldn't become useless so quickly.

Speed loss maybe but I don't see why damage should increase. The train is not a weapon, it's just passing through.

[<NO_NAME>]

I would suggest having trains bump objects to the side with a minor loss of speed. If the entity cannot be moved to the side (due to collision with another entity) it should try to push it forward instead, then collide with it again and re-apply the damage and speed loss, repeating until the entity dies, can be moved out of the way, or the train comes to a stop.

Kudo!

Both damages that train gives and its lost of speed could be modified by research (e.g. "engine power"), in order to not make trains too op at the early game and too weak at the late game.
That would have a disadvantage that player itself wouldn't be safe from trains, even with the Power armor MK2. At least, early-game safe crossings and all that infrastructure wouldn't become useless so quickly.

Speed loss maybe but I don't see why damage should increase. The train is not a weapon, it's just passing through.

Actually, I was thinking only about player aspect. I just don't like to watch as my safe train passages are useless, knowing that I have spend so much time on their design.
Of course, trains are not weapons and they should be as hard as possible to use in that way. Otherwise, player would use looped track as a main line of defense.

I have another idea. If I understood correctly your post, loss of train speed is pretty much proportional to inflicted damages. Train would push enemies out of the track, so they won't take a lot of damage. However, player's energy shield could prevent player from being pushed, so he would stop the train and take a really massive hit.

In other hand, I see a problem with the whole pushing idea. Train would be safe because it'd be able to escape enemies. But still, they would chase the it. This is a big problem because they will probably destroy a lot of things that are along the tracks like electric poles or another trains which are waiting on semaphore.

[Entelin]

If the behavior was identical as now but damage increased such that it could run over a few green mobs before stopping. I don't see how this would be a practical defense in the late game as if you were intentionally setting things up such that they would run over attack waves... they would just eventually get stopped and be destroyed. It would just add manual maintenance to your defense, as turrets and other things can be replaced by bots, while trains cannot.

Under those circumstances if someone really wanted to use a train as a weapon.... let them, it's in no way better than existing turrets, and it is running over a wave of mobs in the trailer, it's kind of fun despite being mostly useless for the purpose even with a damage boost.

[Entelin]

One note on this: One doesn't necessarily need to just give the train a flat damage boost. Instead the train could do percent damage rather than flat damage. In this way the train would function the same in the endgame as it does in the early game with respect to hitting mobs.

I don't really care how it's done specifically, the current situation is very un-fun having to choose between walling off the map, or regularly traveling long distances to replace some dead engine.

[Koub]

With the momentum the train has, it shouldn't even slow down noticeably. Let it run over through any organic life and bump its remains on the side. That should be enough.

[Deadly-Bagel]

Yeah, later I was thinking what a minor loss of speed would even accomplish. It would need to be so minor that only a HUGE wave of biters could stop it, which is unlikely and it's still going to be annoying. Just have it plough through, why not ^^

[Entelin]

It would be great if something could be done about this before / at the same time, that nuclear power update goes through. I definitely want to do another play-through at that time, but this issue demotivates me a great deal to keep working on my endgame factory.

[Slayn25]

I say the train should derail, explode, and then the aliens steal yours resources. Welcome to Dark Souls - Factorio.

[<NO_NAME>]

I say the train should derail, explode, and then the aliens steal yours resources. Welcome to Dark Souls - Factorio.

Yeah, and you have only one life. If you die, your saves are deleted.

[golfmiketango]

Train-on-train physics work pretty gracefully when, for example, attaching stationary rolling stock to a moving train. But train-on-train and train-on-non-train violence involves obvious "video-game physics". Also, it's amusing, and, indeed, convenient -- but obviously terribly unrealistic -- that in a single tick a manually driven train can decelerate from max velocity to zero at the end of a track without any negative consequences.

Seems like the problem here is not train physics, but the lack of them, in several circumstances which, although fairly extraordinary under normal circumstances, become increasingly routine as your network of trains approaches mega- scale.