Fluid Production and Consumption Values

[Alice3173]

This suggestion is fairly self-explanatory. Things such as the water pump and steam engines don't provide any information on how much they produce/consume which makes it pretty difficult to try and optimize a network. This is less of an issue with the base game since a quick look on the wiki would tell you one water pump and fourteen boilers provide enough water and temperature for ten steam engines but we shouldn't have to use the wiki or do some fairly tedious trial and error to figure this out to begin with. This is especially a problem, however, when it comes to any mod that adds new boilers and steam engines and such. It's really difficult to figure out just how many upgraded boilers/steam engines a single pump can support without some fairly tedious trial and error.

[bobingabout]

Although it doesn't say it in game, the offshore pump produces 1 unit of water per tick, or 60 per second. The steam engine consumes 0.1 unit of water per tick, or 6 per second. using this math it's easy to see that you can run 10 steam engines off one pump.
You then need to work out the number of boilers you need to power that line.

In theory, you could work out how many boilers you need per steam engine by doing some math. A boiler produces 390kW of heat, where a steam engine produces 510kW of Electricity. So it's 4 boilers to every 3 steam engines, so you'd need 14 boilers to power 10 steam engines.
This works in the base game because the steam engine has a 100% efficiency, the information presented with a modded steam engine with different efficiency likely won't make a lot of sense.

To try and be fair, the first page of my power mod topic does list the ideal ratios for steam engines and boilers on a line.

However, back to base game, if you only had 9 steam engines, then you only need 12 boilers. Without using the wiki, or math using game code, these are the numbers I worked out myself through experimentation in the game.

[Alice3173]

Although it doesn't say it in game, the offshore pump produces 1 unit of water per tick, or 60 per second.

That's kinda my point though. You could figure it out by digging through the game files but you shouldn't have to do that. It's something that should really be available right in the game.

A boiler produces 390kW of heat

Out of curiosity, how did you get this number? Unless I'm overlooking something there doesn't appear to be anything in the game at all that would suggest an actual number for boiler output.

[bobingabout]

A boiler produces 390kW of heat

Out of curiosity, how did you get this number? Unless I'm overlooking something there doesn't appear to be anything in the game at all that would suggest an actual number for boiler output.

I can't remember, I just know the number because I've seen it that often. Remember I'm a modder, I could just be remembering it because I've looked at it so many times in the code.

Efficiency may be 50%, but the way the game works, the boiler will just burn fuel faster to sustain the 390kW usage, so it's consuming 780kW of fuel to produce this 390kW.

[Hannu]

I am almost sure that 390 kW is given in the game. Look at crating menu.

[Alice3173]

I am almost sure that 390 kW is given in the game. Look at crating menu.

It's given as energy consumption. If that's how much heat is produced though then that's an extremely misleading label. I had always thought that was simply how much fuel it consumes. So with coal providing 8mj of fuel that just means one piece of coal would last ~20.5 seconds. If that's actually how much heat the boiler provides then this is probably another thing that could be changed up to be a bit more clear as well. (The whole efficiency thing isn't exactly clear either. Does that mean one piece of coal would produce 4mj of heat? And this also doesn't explain at all how much heat 4mj would actually be to begin with.)

Also while we're on the subject of clearing things up it'd be really helpful if the difference between joules and watts was explained in the game. When I first started building accumulators I had to look it up and even Wikipedia's article isn't half as clear as it could be on the relationship between joules and watts for someone who isn't particularly well-versed in the subject of electricity.

[ssilk]

I am almost sure that 390 kW is given in the game. Look at crating menu.

It's given as energy consumption. If that's how much heat is produced though then that's an extremely misleading label. I had always thought that was simply how much fuel it consumes.

Well, there are a lot of suggestions to improve that: viewtopic.php?f=80&t=25233

Also while we're on the subject of clearing things up it'd be really helpful if the difference between joules and watts was explained in the game. When I first started building accumulators I had to look it up and even Wikipedia's article isn't half as clear as it could be on the relationship between joules and watts for someone who isn't particularly well-versed in the subject of electricity.

Well, in the case of Factorio it is really super simple. A joule is the power of one watt for one second. So if you have the energy of one joule (let's say a very small piece of coal) and you release that within a second you get the power of one watt.
Hope that's helpful.

In the reality it is complex, cause - for whatever reason - we need calculate with kilowatt-hours. Which complicates stuff, cause you need to mulitply/divide everything with 3600 to get kilowatts out. But in the game those conversions are not useful.
See also https://wiki.factorio.com/index.php?tit ... y_and_Work

[Alice3173]

Well, there are a lot of suggestions to improve that: viewtopic.php?f=80&t=25233

Hopefully at least some of these get implemented. The current UI isn't awful by any means but there's definitely quite a few improvements that could be made.

Well, in the case of Factorio it is really super simple. A joule is the power of one watt for one second. So if you have the energy of one joule (let's say a very small piece of coal) and you release that within a second you get the power of one watt.
Hope that's helpful.

Yup, I eventually figured that out. I had to reread the Wikipedia page on it multiple times (even the simple page didn't help much) before I had a good enough idea of what a joule was to go back to the game and figure out exactly how the game handles it. It may be less accurate to real life but it might be easier to rename it to something like "kilo/mega/whateverwatt-seconds" instead. That'd probably be easier for someone who has no experience with electrical systems to get.

[ssilk]

it might be easier to rename it to something like "kilo/mega/whateverwatt-seconds" instead.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watt_second

A watt second (also watt-second, symbol W s or W·s) is a derived unit of energy equivalent to the joule. The watt-second is the energy equivalent to the power of one watt sustained for one second. While the watt-second is equivalent to the joule in both units and meaning, there are some contexts in which the term "watt-second" is used instead of "joule".

For learned engineers like me the whole energy-concept is just beautiful: I can USE the stuff I've learned

[Alice3173]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watt_second

A watt second (also watt-second, symbol W s or W·s) is a derived unit of energy equivalent to the joule. The watt-second is the energy equivalent to the power of one watt sustained for one second. While the watt-second is equivalent to the joule in both units and meaning, there are some contexts in which the term "watt-second" is used instead of "joule".

For learned engineers like me the whole energy-concept is just beautiful: I can USE the stuff I've learned

Well what the heck is the point of having both then? That's kinda confusing, lol. I had no idea that was an actual valid term. If it's indeed accurate though I'd think it'd be a less confusing term to use in the game rather than joules.

[ssilk]

Well what the heck is the point of having both then?

Well.

Example from electro-technics: If you multiply Voltage with Ampere (A battery has 1.5 Volts and the lamp needs for example 0.5 Ampere of electron-flow to bring it to glim) you get Ampere-Volt. Nobody would call it Ampere-Volt (or Volt-Ampere, that is the same!), but this is then just a new Unit: Watt.
Same goes with Joule and Watt-Seconds.

[steinio]

If you relate Joule to Watt seconds is one second one tick or 60 because in this game is not really a concept of time.

BTW this Joule value with accumulators is not really clear for beginners to estimate how long they will last.

Greetings steinio

[Alice3173]

Well.

Example from electro-technics: If you multiply Voltage with Ampere (A battery has 1.5 Volts and the lamp needs for example 0.5 Ampere of electron-flow to bring it to glim) you get Ampere-Volt. Nobody would call it Ampere-Volt (or Volt-Ampere, that is the same!), but this is then just a new Unit: Watt.
Same goes with Joule and Watt-Seconds.

That's just confusing, lol. But I always forget what the relationship between volts and amperes actually is to begin with. (Though iirc it's high amperes that are dangerous when getting shocked. That much I'm pretty sure on.) Electricity is complicated.

[ssilk]

this Joule value with accumulators is not really clear for beginners to estimate how long they will last.

Me either. My idea: A combinator (a circuit), that measures the decrease-rate and can estimate then how long it will last.
In my games I never needed that: When It is below 50% I know I need to watch over it. Calculating that is for the weak.

[<NO_NAME>]

Well.

Example from electro-technics: If you multiply Voltage with Ampere (A battery has 1.5 Volts and the lamp needs for example 0.5 Ampere of electron-flow to bring it to glim) you get Ampere-Volt. Nobody would call it Ampere-Volt (or Volt-Ampere, that is the same!), but this is then just a new Unit: Watt.
Same goes with Joule and Watt-Seconds.

That's just confusing, lol. But I always forget what the relationship between volts and amperes actually is to begin with. (Though iirc it's high amperes that are dangerous when getting shocked. That much I'm pretty sure on.) Electricity is complicated.

I always show this video to people who have problem with understanding relation between voltage and current: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDf2nhfxVzg

[ssilk]

I answered and then I realized, that this is now really, really off-topic. Well - at least the moderator should follow his own rules, so I reposted my answer here:
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=33963

[Alice3173]

I answered and then I realized, that this is now really, really off-topic. Well - at least the moderator should follow his own rules, so I reposted my answer here:
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=33963

That's actually really helpful. Thanks for writing that up.